Classification of a wreck

[Ulater]

It was shown pretty well on an example of one panzer division and two heavy tank battalions how effective or ineffective it was,

Design problems and spare shortages plagued the panzers. The faults were deeply embedded and the repair system was dysfunctional.

Example:
Guderian, a report presented to Hitler on June 28 1944.

The Panther tank catches fire very quickly and in an astonishing way. The engine life of the Panther (1,400-1,500 km) is far higher than that of the transmission. A speedy solution is necessary.

And yet, 10 000 AFVs were repaired between october 43 and January 44. Is that not enough?

[Yoozername]

I think this report speaks to the actual dynamics going on in Fall 1943. Note that all the 'wrecks' are not being 'dragged around'. They are being written off, placed in their respective repair sites, or put in a 'collection point' well back of the Division. The reports that units did not send back AFV for 'Homeland Repair' seems to not be sensitive to the fact that units were short of tugs (recovery vehicles), were in constant action and quite possibly, there was no means to get the AFV back to 'Homeland' at all.

96 Panthers to start
28 total write offs
11 operational
11 short term repair
13 battalion workshop {200+ Km away}
4 in Regt Workshop
1 guarding a dam (perhaps semi-operational)

24 at a collection point {sounds written off or waiting to be sent for a depot repair}
4 loaded on railcars (evidently going to a collection point)

Does anyone really think these are being dragged around? They would only be moved if they were threatened by an enemy advance.

[Michael Kenny]

Note that all the 'wrecks' are not being 'dragged around'. ...................
96 Panthers to start
28 total write offs
11 operational
11 short term repair
13 battalion workshop {200+ Km away}
4 in Regt Workshop
1 guarding a dam (perhaps semi-operational)

24 at a collection point {sounds written off or waiting to be sent for a depot repair}
4 loaded on railcars (evidently going to a collection point)

Sourced from Jentz Panzer Truppen 2 page 115.
You would have to know the fate of all the Panthers in red before you could say that there were no wrecks being carried for spares.

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/kv ... anzer.html

[Ulater]

4th September - fighting, losses limited to mechanical breakdowns.
5th September - operational Panthers down to 37 units, as a result of numerous mechanical problems.
6th September - 3 Panthers lost, 2 blown-up due to mechanical breakdowns.
12th September - 14 blown-up on in Fedorowka due to being taken there for repair and germans being incapable of evacuating them on time.
15th September - while regrouping, Major Fechcner was only capable of recovering a portion of the almost exclusively broken down tanks, and another 20 had to be blown-up due to lack of recovery vehicles.

Combat history of 23rd Panzer division seems to point towards mechanical breakdowns mostly.

[Stiltzkin]

Combat history of 23rd Panzer division seems to point towards mechanical breakdowns mostly.

Usually historians do not look at mean time to failure and mean times between failures, completely ignoring the duration the units were exposed to the front (as well as context and combat role, Panthers would be spearheading, Panzer IVs securing), i.e. drawing conclusions based on the timeframe the crews spent inside a tank during action. The tempo of getting knocked out, experiencing break down or getting killed and of course the absorption of damage.

[Yoozername]

Note that all the 'wrecks' are not being 'dragged around'. ...................
96 Panthers to start
28 total write offs
11 operational
11 short term repair
13 battalion workshop {200+ Km away}
4 in Regt Workshop
1 guarding a dam (perhaps semi-operational)

24 at a collection point {sounds written off or waiting to be sent for a depot repair}
4 loaded on railcars (evidently going to a collection point)

Sourced from Jentz Panzer Truppen 2 page 115.
You would have to know the fate of all the Panthers in red before you could say that there were no wrecks being carried for spares.

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/kv ... anzer.html

You missed the point that the panthers are located in already discussed known places, Bn workshop =11 short term+ 13 longer, Regt workshop =4, and a 'holding area', and panthers on trains. You use specious logic for your own means, but need definitive accounting for other sides of arguments? I could just as easily point out that there is more than likely a limited means to evacuate them off the holding areas given the circumstances in Fall/Winter 1943. If they would be 'carried for spares' , why not keep them at the Bn and Regt repair locations?

Whilst you can say the data does not confirm my argument it does not disprove it either. M. Kenny

Still pondering that one..

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

Ready source of parts and diesel fuel for them also? The Germans were retreating in later 1943. They had a shortage of 'Tugs' to even evacuate their own panzers. You have to prove that statement with data on how many there were, how many were operational, etc...see how it works?

I still think that there might be an accounting 'ownership' if a unit could get a afv to 'depot repair'. That is, if sent there and it was given a 'triage' that it would be repaired (however long), and not determined to be a Homeland Repair (total write-off). Given the number of non-operational panzers in late 1943, and IF the units could obey the out of touch orders to send back all those panzers, it would have swamped the system in place. Homeland repair had spotty results according to the data. There were as many Tiger Is listed as stock for Homeland Repair as being produced in the factory in March 1944.

[Michael Kenny]

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

Ready source of parts and diesel fuel for them also? The Germans were retreating in later 1943. They had a shortage of 'Tugs' to even evacuate their own panzers. You have to prove that statement with data on how many there were, how many were operational, etc...see how it works?

Yes it is the endless list of excuses for a German failure.
Once anyone shows excuse no.1 is not valid go to excuse No. 2
If excuse 2 is found wanting default to excuse 3 etc, etc, etc.

[Ulater]

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

Ready source of parts and diesel fuel for them also? The Germans were retreating in later 1943. They had a shortage of 'Tugs' to even evacuate their own panzers. You have to prove that statement with data on how many there were, how many were operational, etc...see how it works?

Yes it is the endless list of excuses for a German failure.
Once anyone shows excuse no.1 is not valid go to excuse No. 2
If excuse 2 is found wanting default to excuse 3 etc, etc, etc.

And again, here we have the usual when another avenue of empty argumentation failed.

This is your thread, and your argument, how about you provide more information about II./PR 23. Because now when it is convenient, Panthers are suddenly reliable enough for 28 + whatever part of those 40 you think were wrecks to be heavily damaged or destroyed in combat, and that a unit that was down to 30% of runners a few days in, and still just collecting their damaged tanks a week and a half later while incessantly complaining about the lack of recovery vehicles, has enough recovery vehicles and is actually repairing something, let alone canibalising.

[Yoozername]

There was a ready source of recovery vehicles-captured T34 and KV tanks.

Ready source of parts and diesel fuel for them also? The Germans were retreating in later 1943. They had a shortage of 'Tugs' to even evacuate their own panzers. You have to prove that statement with data on how many there were, how many were operational, etc...see how it works?

Yes it is the endless list of excuses for a German failure.
Once anyone shows excuse no.1 is not valid go to excuse No. 2
If excuse 2 is found wanting default to excuse 3 etc, etc, etc.

You can't address any points. Just use ad hominem and red herrings. Thanks for being so predictable.

[Michael Kenny]

how about you provide more information about II./PR 23. Because now when it is convenient, Panthers are suddenly reliable enough for 28 + whatever part of those 40 you think were wrecks to be heavily damaged or destroyed in combat, and that a unit that was down to 30% of runners a few days in, and still just collecting their damaged tanks a week and a half later while incessantly complaining about the lack of recovery vehicles, has enough recovery vehicles and is actually repairing something, let alone canibalising.

I can not see a point in there but if you want an example of vanishing tanks try SS Pz Rgt 9 in Normandy. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=244754

[Yoozername]

This is your thread, and your argument, how about you provide more information about II./PR 23.

He deflects to another thread...to another unit...on another front...in another year!

[Michael Kenny]

He deflects to another thread...to another unit...on another front...in another year!

You can't address any points. Just use ad hominem and red herrings. Thanks for being so predictable

[Yoozername]

Excerpt from a Report written by the commander of the Tiger-Abteilung 506 on the performance of his battalion at the bridgehead of Saporoshje (Ukraine). Especially interesting are the harsh criticisms of the German infantry as well as the description of the damages suffered in the vehicles (due to enemy fire and breakdowns) in the barely seven days of the fighting.


9/30/1943

Maintenance difficulties

Since the battalion only has 5 towing vehicles, instead of the 13 that correspond to it, and that towing a Tiger on mountainous terrain requires 3 towing vehicles, the recovery by the maintenance company ( Werkstatt-Kompanie ) of immobilized vehicles has been produced very slowly. The 3rd tank recovery company ( Panzer-Bergekompanie 3 ) of XXXX.Pz.AK placed 26.9.43 at our disposal, having claimed them, 4 recovery vehicles.

Due to the refolding of the tank spare parts warehouse ( Panzer-Ersatzteillager) from Dnepropetrowsk near Berditschew (approximately 600 km in a straight line) getting spare parts is now more difficult and maintenance and repair lasts longer than in Germany. Because the battalion had been reorganized and the fact that there were no experiences with the Tiger, it could not be refurbished with spare parts. The maintenance company has been reorganized and is largely made up of artisans who have never worked with tanks. Not all toolboxes have yet been received. One of the most important things that are still missing is the electric welding equipment, necessary to weld the open welding points.

[Ulater]

how about you provide more information about II./PR 23. Because now when it is convenient, Panthers are suddenly reliable enough for 28 + whatever part of those 40 you think were wrecks to be heavily damaged or destroyed in combat, and that a unit that was down to 30% of runners a few days in, and still just collecting their damaged tanks a week and a half later while incessantly complaining about the lack of recovery vehicles, has enough recovery vehicles and is actually repairing something, let alone canibalising.

I can not see a point in there but if you want an example of vanishing tanks try SS Pz Rgt 9 in Normandy. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=244754

I dont care about your missdirections.

- KV-s and T-34 were used as recovery vehicles, what is the relation between that and II./PR23?
- Where are the wrecks for spare parts dragged around in a unit that was largely incapable of even getting those vehicles out of the battlefield 15 days later?

Go.

[Yoozername]

He deflects to another thread...to another unit...on another front...in another year!

You can't address any points. Just use ad hominem and red herrings. Thanks for being so predictable

No pics to go along with that cherub?