KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Contender » 12 Mar 2020 21:22

critical mass wrote:
12 Mar 2020 20:26
Tiger could and did fire Flak ammo during 1943.
Really? I was under the impression the Flak round (Pzgr) was never fired by the Tiger I E given that the Pzgr round would require reworking (fuse & possibly more) in order for it to fire from the KwK 36 weapon.
Mobius wrote:
18 Nov 2019 10:45
I also have a German photo of a captured JS-2 that differs from the armor scheme drawings.
About that:
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100-119 mm measured & the much vaunted "120 mm™" seems a bit much for variation of cast plate, perhaps the summer builds of the JS-2 (stepped hull with modified turret/optic) were slightly up armored compared to the initial series? Then again the armor plates on these vehicles are not a uniform thickness but rather appear to vary quite curiously all throughout the plate :
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It is possible the KV-85 might vary similarly making armor thickness difficult to determine.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by critical mass » 19 Mar 2020 15:55

Contender wrote:
12 Mar 2020 21:22
critical mass wrote:
12 Mar 2020 20:26
Tiger could and did fire Flak ammo during 1943.
Really? I was under the impression the Flak round (Pzgr) was never fired by the Tiger I E given that the Pzgr round would require reworking (fuse & possibly more) in order for it to fire from the KwK 36 weapon.
It’s not the fuse. It’s the cartridge primer. However,
they used inlaid primers to fire percussion primed FLAK ammunition from electrically actuated kwk36. Some schw.Abt. In early 1943 reported to have used only Flak ammo.It was widely practiced.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Contender » 19 Mar 2020 20:55

critical mass wrote:
12 Mar 2020 20:26
It’s not the fuse. It’s the cartridge primer. However,
they used inlaid primers to fire percussion primed FLAK ammunition from electrically actuated kwk36. Some schw.Abt. In early 1943 reported to have used only Flak ammo.It was widely practiced.
Interesting, I would like to see some sources for this if possible.
Last edited by Contender on 19 Mar 2020 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by critical mass » 19 Mar 2020 22:00

gg15253/43, originally clasified SECRET,

"Tiger Abt. 502 hat nur Flak-Mun. für Kw.K. verwandt (einges. elektr. Zünder) (...)"

Heavy Abt. 502 used exclusively 88mm FLAK ammunition in early 1943. As mentioned previously, they used electric inley primers ("einges. elektr. Züner") when using FLAK ammo instead of KWK ammo.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Yoozername » 20 Mar 2020 00:23

Can you post the whole report?

There were very few Tigers around in early 1943. One source says there were only 1800 Pzgr39 8,8 cm made in 1942. In 1943, over 100K were made, along with rare Pzgr 40 (5600), and even HL (22,400). 8000 Spgr were made in '42, and over 135K made in 43.

The Tiger 'fleet' was never that great. Runners were even less. I will review 'Tigers in the Mud', (502) but from memory, ammunition did not seem to be a problem. By Kursk, the ammunition usage that Miles posted breaks out the Tiger and FlaK ammo separately.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by critical mass » 22 Mar 2020 11:05

The whole report is too much to post. Its a compilation of summeries noted during the discussion of ordnance chiefs in regard to various trials, field experiences, planned (and abandoned) developments of Ammunition (compare attachment). Of course, it´s a primary source.
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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Yoozername » 23 Mar 2020 22:16

Neat bunch of stuff. Like blurbs. Perhaps open to interpretation?

'Hat Nur' can be translated as 'has only'. It could be that they have to use FlaK ammunition due to a shortage of KWK ammunition. I would not infer 'exclusiveness' from that. But, it certainly proves that they did use FlaK ammo in some form. 'Is the date somewhere? The /43 on the left?

It mentions 'protection against flames by installing sheet metal'? But says that they then had 'good experience with this'? Did flames shoot out from the breech when opened????

The next blurb mentions 8,8 cm Spgr knocking off T34 turrets? Is this possibly related to the one above??

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Mar 2020 23:03

Yoozername wrote:
23 Mar 2020 22:16


It mentions 'protection against flames by installing sheet metal'? But says that they then had 'good experience with this'? Did flames shoot out from the breech when opened????

'Tiger Tank: A British View page 138-139 mention the firing trials. They state they used flak ammo and that backflash was considerable on 3 of 4 rounds. They also believe the deflector guard fitted on the commanders side was there to protect him from the backflash.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by critical mass » 25 Mar 2020 17:41

There is no date to the file and the other summaries are not sorted in a comprehensible form. However, its from 1943 as indicated by the /43 suffix.
For whats worth, one may infer from the form that it responded to a question how ammo performed, as it stated to have had good experiences with Flak ammo. The emphasized
nur
on the other hand tells me that the initial question was not related to Flak ammo but KwK ammo, which at that point was also distributed for the first time (8.8cm pzgr.39 appearing in quantity). Apparently, schw. Abt. 502 had not used KwK ammo until this memo was returned, explaining the from of the response. If that is assumed to be a believable hypothesis, it would point towards an early time in 1943, perhaps march or april.
The next blurb mentions 8,8 cm Spgr knocking off T34 turrets? Is this possibly related to the one above??
no, it doesnt refer to the one above, its a different memo. Engl. Mk. II is very probably the Mathilda II, judging by 1943 editions of the Panzer Beschusstafel. Both, early T34 and Mathilda exhibited cast turrets, and I know of other memos, which were critical about the resistence of armor castings. This might help to explain why german tank designs preferred RHA welded turrets and used cast armor only for non-structural members, such as mantlets. Personally, I tend to believe that this is not a proof of inferiority of armor castings but highlights the difficulties experienced in the early wartime to make good armor castings. The T34 used 8S steel for turret castings, which are terribly ineffective because this steel was made for RHA and had poor cast properties. I don´t know enough about the Mathilda-II to form an opinion.

MK´s infromation comes in support to what this source states. Backflash when firing Flak ammunition seems to have been a recognized issue.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Mar 2020 20:26

Tiger gunnery trials. (a) (1).jpg
Tiger gunnery trials. (a) (2).jpg
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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Contender » 25 Mar 2020 22:37

critical mass wrote:
22 Mar 2020 11:05
The whole report is too much to post. Its a compilation of summeries noted during the discussion of ordnance chiefs in regard to various trials, field experiences, planned (and abandoned) developments of Ammunition (compare attachment). Of course, it´s a primary source.
Good post, Ty for excerpt
Yoozername wrote:
23 Mar 2020 22:16
it certainly proves that they did use FlaK ammo in some form.
1942 examination of a Tiger I E excerpt:
Forgive the annoying watermark it was necessary for a post elsewhere and I do not have time to remove it atm.
Image
critical mass wrote:
25 Mar 2020 17:41
For whats worth, one may infer from the form that it responded to a question how ammo performed, as it stated to have had good experiences with Flak ammo.
IIRC Pzgr is a thinner walled larger HE cavity round therefore if the round penetrates a target the after penetration effects should be quite spectacular, better than the improved rounds Pzgr 39 (-1) and in 1943 the Pzgr round should penetrate most soviet armor quite effectively. So perhaps there might be a reason to keep a more destructive round in use other than due to shortages?

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Yoozername » 26 Mar 2020 03:54

All fair enough. I did see in some Flak 88 documentation itself that there is a flame back issue. All good. Also, lots of them 88mm HE made. Different propellant mixes.

I did get a chuckle about Pzgr 40 for the KWK 36 ratio. Ok, yeah, right!

Not sure what a 'smoke tracer' for a HE round is (till Korea), but it is all in the game.

IF I were a Tiger commander, I would try and get 88mm FlaK rounds with not percussion fuse, but a dialed in altitude fuse, so I could harrass ground targets at 4000 meters with airbursts.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Mobius » 26 Mar 2020 04:08

I never knew any HE had tracers, That's a new one.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by Contender » 29 Mar 2020 15:23

Yoozername wrote:
26 Mar 2020 03:54
IF I were a Tiger commander, I would try and get 88mm FlaK rounds with not percussion fuse, but a dialed in altitude fuse, so I could harrass ground targets at 4000 meters with airbursts.
German & british (I am uncertain about us or soviet but I expect they could as well) HE shells within Afv's could be switched from impact to a timed fuse.

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Re: KV-85 armor values generated from German photos.

Post by critical mass » 29 Mar 2020 16:05

Contender wrote:
25 Mar 2020 22:37

IIRC Pzgr is a thinner walled larger HE cavity round therefore if the round penetrates a target the after penetration effects should be quite spectacular, better than the improved rounds Pzgr 39 (-1) and in 1943 the Pzgr round should penetrate most soviet armor quite effectively. So perhaps there might be a reason to keep a more destructive round in use other than due to shortages?
I base my statement on the fact, that the technology and knowledge required to mass production of their new Pzgr39 ammunition in 7.5cm and larger calibre only evolved in autumn 1942. That´s when the report was written and circulated by WaPrüf to other manufacturers (BAMA RH8-1319). It takes time to retool manufacturers, then to produce ammunition lots, test, proof and re-proof enough of them that the Feldzugamt builds up a sufficiently large stock of 75mm & 88mm Pzgr39 ammunition, which then also needs to be deployed to field units. Thus, for larger calibre (5cm Pzgr39 was developed somwhat earlier already), there cannot have been very many Pzgr39 around in early 1943. I suppose it became standart somewhen in spring 1943.

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