Tank Destroyer Vs turret fitted tanks. Rotation speed?

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
emeny
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#31

Post by emeny » 17 Feb 2005, 12:29

I'm not actually a qualified technician, but i do have a lot of hands on experience operating machines that use hydraulics, and i have had to conduct running repairs and general maintenance of hydraulic components in my time.

I don't know exactly how this relates to tanks, but i think i have a fairly good idea. :)

The hydraulic system usually has enough pressure built up to maintain operation of the required implements for quite some time after the engine has dropped from operating RPM to idle RPM, but, at the idle the speed and power of those implements will gradually decrease due to the nature of hydraulics.
While more revs CAN be used to speed up hydraulic implements, this is NOT NECCESARY with systems i have experience with.
That is because there are fine tuning levers and the systems are in parallel, not in series, so to speak. :D
When the fine tuning lever is used, the bulk of the fluid pressure returns to the fluid reservoir, and a small jet fine tunes the implement,
Or, a small valve only opens partially to operate said implement.

In a tank i expect they would adjust the engine idle speed, to ensure the Hydraulic pump was maintaining sufficient pressure to rotate the turret while the engine was at the idle. Simple really, very simple.
Or, a more efficient HP is used, that pumps more fluid at the idle.

Another thing to note, is that hydraulics require specific fluid, and are high maintenance.
With age and under harsh operating conditions, the system will inevitably spring leaks, and also vaporise a lot of fluid, requiring topping up at regular intervals.

I have had pipes and leads, and on one occasion, a whole hydraulic ram burst open and been saturated in the hydraulic fluid. It was luke-warm and sticky, and smelt a bit oily, but it did me no harm, so i know it's suitable for operational millitary conditions.

I will have a look in the online Bovington restoration diary about that Tiger, i had a feeling it was electrically oprated, but that seems silly.

emeny
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#32

Post by emeny » 20 Feb 2005, 02:04

The turret rotation is by Hydraulics, the power for which is drawn directly from the gearbox, and affected by RPM.

There is no electric back-up motor, if the engine is stopped it can only be turned by hand.


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David Lehmann
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#33

Post by David Lehmann » 20 Feb 2005, 11:40

Hi,

The Somua S35 and the Renault B1/B1bis have a double differential steering. One track could go in one direction while the other could go in the opposite direction - allowing the tank to "turn on the spot". On the 1940 battlefield, only these French tanks posses this ability. All other tanks had to move forward/backward in some fashion for the ability to turn, and this could cause, in situations such as hull-down or good camouflaged position, to loose that advantage since you did have to move. In some extent there are therefore able to turn the hull faster than most other tanks in 1940, the differential steering allowed a better turn radius "on the spot".
The German tanks in 1940 did not have that feature, thus the two tracks could not rotate in different directions. One track was blocked to turn but this could be bad considering that you could possibly throw a track if your opposite track wasn't on the correct type of ground. The later Panther (and perhaps Tiger ?) tanks did have a kind of differential steering. That gave them a good advantage and a good rotation combined to the turret rotation.

David

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Warlordimi
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#34

Post by Warlordimi » 20 Feb 2005, 23:03

Wow, I thought that all tanks had a diffrential steering. That was the purpose of my initial question! Indeed, there can be no comparaison between a turret and such tanks!

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cbo
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#35

Post by cbo » 21 Feb 2005, 11:46

David Lehmann wrote: Hi,

The Somua S35 and the Renault B1/B1bis have a double differential steering. One track could go in one direction while the other could go in the opposite direction - allowing the tank to "turn on the spot". On the 1940 battlefield, only these French tanks posses this ability. All other tanks had to move forward/backward in some fashion for the ability to turn, and this could cause, in situations such as hull-down or good camouflaged position, to loose that advantage since you did have to move. In some extent there are therefore able to turn the hull faster than most other tanks in 1940, the differential steering allowed a better turn radius "on the spot".
Not to mention that the steering drive in the Char B1 was a hydraulic unit giving it an infinite number of turning radii. It gave the driver the extremely fine control that was necessary for him to aim the hull gun. Very advanced stuff but AFAIK it was somewhat fragile?
David Lehmann wrote:The German tanks in 1940 did not have that feature, thus the two tracks could not rotate in different directions. One track was blocked to turn but this could be bad considering that you could possibly throw a track if your opposite track wasn't on the correct type of ground. The later Panther (and perhaps Tiger ?) tanks did have a kind of differential steering. That gave them a good advantage and a good rotation combined to the turret rotation.
The Panther used a modified version of the geared system found in the ex-Czech Pz.38t (German design, patented in Sweden, exported to Czechoslovakia then finding its way back into German tank design). While the original system was admirably simple, it did not allow for the neutral turn. The modified version in the Panther gave it one radius of turn for each propulsion gear (7 of them) as well as the neutral turn ability.
I think the Tigers steering system was of the double differential type, designed to give two radii of turn for each propulsion gear (8 of those IIRC).

Claus B

Dima
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#36

Post by Dima » 22 Feb 2005, 18:39

Hey!

And what was turret rotation speed of PzIIIs,PzII?
What year did german tanks receive ability 'to turn in spot'?

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Blistex
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#37

Post by Blistex » 23 Feb 2005, 05:35

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:The tank's engine would still be on, even though the tank is halted.
Which is a requirement for a hydraulic pump or ram to operate. Try poving a hoist on a forklift any direction but down when the engine is off.
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Furthermore, the driver may for some reason increase the revolations, either as a result of a misunderstanding or by accident, which would suddenly move the turret fast...

Chistian
Isn't that the same as saying that a ball turret in a B-17 shouldn't have vertical traverse since the pilot might put the aircraft into a nose dive at any second?

Since I'm away at University I don't have the luxury of consulting my library, but I'm sure a number of sources in my Library have made statements to the fact that a Tiger I's turret was able to be sped up or slowed down due to the engine RPM's.

This would be characteristic of every machine I've ever used that had hydraulics in it (tractors, forklifts, bulldozers, pay loaders, backhoes, bale wrappers, wood splitters). If you've had the opportunity to use any of these machines you'd realize that fine adjustment of the controls can be achieved even at peak rpm's with a light touch since the controls are analog.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#38

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 07 May 2005, 03:54

I just got a manual on the turret traverse engine for the Pz.Kpfw.IV, so I added an article about it on Panzerworld: <http://www.panzerworld.net/pzkpfwiv.html>.

I think some of the information in quite interesting (such as the 1 hour 15 minutes traverse speed at minimum speed), as well as the seemingly extremely low hp-to-weight ratio. I guess the amount of power required wouldn't be nearly as high as for driving the tank, though.

I'm in doubt about the validity of some of the technical terms, so if anyne spots any errors, please let me know.

Christian

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cbo
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#39

Post by cbo » 09 May 2005, 09:52

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:I just got a manual on the turret traverse engine for the Pz.Kpfw.IV, so I added an article about it on Panzerworld: <http://www.panzerworld.net/pzkpfwiv.html>.

I think some of the information in quite interesting (such as the 1 hour 15 minutes traverse speed at minimum speed), as well as the seemingly extremely low hp-to-weight ratio. I guess the amount of power required wouldn't be nearly as high as for driving the tank, though.

I'm in doubt about the validity of some of the technical terms, so if anyne spots any errors, please let me know.

Christian
I get the impression from you site that the Panzer IV used only one type of engine which could be called either ZW500 or ZW600. In reality, they were two different type of engines and the specifications you present on your site seems to be those for the ZW500 which was introduced with the Panzer IV Ausf. E. The Ausf. A to Ausf. D used the PZW600 which was probably a 600cc engine (hence the name!) based on DKWs engines with a 74mm bore (as opposed to the 68mm bore of the ZW500). The PZW600 seems to have produced about 14hp to 12hp of the ZW500.

This site has some info on the DKW/Auto-Union stationary engines of the period:

http://www.dkw-autounion.de/Stationarmo ... toren.html

As for the technical terms:

Two-act gasoline engine with DKW reverse flushing

This should probably be two-stroke (to-takts på dansk!) and I've got no idea what "reverse flushing" is - what is the term in German?

Drilling would likely be "bohrung" in German which would translate to bore in English.


Claus B

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#40

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 09 May 2005, 22:48

Thanks for your help! 'Reverse flushing' is called 'Umkehrspülung' in the manual, I have no clue what it means ;)

Christian

rémy carré
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#41

Post by rémy carré » 10 May 2005, 20:01

hello,
To get back to the rotation speed of a Tiger, I thought I heard a German tank veteran ones say that it took him two minutes to turn his turret 360 degrees when he did it with help of the motor and three minutes to do it manual. Or isn't this possible??

greetings,
Rémy

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#42

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 11 May 2005, 00:01

He could probably do it in two minutes, but he could also do it a lot faster.

Christian

Alexander39
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#43

Post by Alexander39 » 14 May 2005, 11:03

If i remember right there was a joke that english soldier could kill a Tiger I simply by slowly soundering around the tank when the hydrulick was shot, since the mechanical backup was geared to ½ degree pr turn ergo you have to turn the handle 720 times for a full turn, so if they tried to hit the poor tommy they would die off exhaustion trying to turn the turret fast enough. :P

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#44

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 15 May 2005, 22:58

They'd have to take out the hydraulics first, though...

Christian

Brady
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Re: Tank Destroyer Vs turret fitted tanks. Rotation speed?

#45

Post by Brady » 04 Aug 2020, 00:23

Turret Rotation Speed of the :

Panzer II ?

Panzer III ?

38(t) ?

222 ?

232 ?

Firefly ?

Cromwell ?

Daimler ?

Churchill ?

Stuart ?

M8 ?

M18 ?

234/1 ?

234/2 ?

Staghound ?

Souma ?

R-35

H-39

Panhard AC

If anyone knows any of these it would help, data is seemingly hard to find on turret rotation speeds for these vehicles

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