Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
- Dan Mouritzsen
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Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
I would very much like to hear your opinion on the line in the Gliederung.
Does it say?
( Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)
Or:
1 Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (Fla)
If it is the first line (F) could mean Fahrschule panzer? Do any of you have a late war Gliederung from other units with Fahrschule panzers I. Marked like this - Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)?
The photo is of some of the units Pz.I with Fahrschule panzers I. as No. 3, 4 and 5 in line.
Dan
5 = 5cm. Kanone.
K= 7,5cm. Kurtz Kanone.
L= 7,5cm. Lang Kanone.
Does it say?
( Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)
Or:
1 Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (Fla)
If it is the first line (F) could mean Fahrschule panzer? Do any of you have a late war Gliederung from other units with Fahrschule panzers I. Marked like this - Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)?
The photo is of some of the units Pz.I with Fahrschule panzers I. as No. 3, 4 and 5 in line.
Dan
5 = 5cm. Kanone.
K= 7,5cm. Kurtz Kanone.
L= 7,5cm. Lang Kanone.
- Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
I have a slightly higher resolution version, and it is clearly a 1 at the beginning.
Whether Fla refers to Fliegerabwehr or something else is a very good question.
Whether Fla refers to Fliegerabwehr or something else is a very good question.
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Hi Dan, hi Christian,
I think it is clear that "Fla" refers to Fliegerabwehr (anti-aircraft). So there were eight vehicles on the Fahrgestell (chassis) of Pz.Kpfwg. I with an AA gun in the Stabskompanie of this Gepanzerte Kampfgruppe. Here a pic with two Fahrgestell Pz.Kpfwg. I with a 2cm- Flak 38. Source of the pic: www.historicalsocietyofgermanmilitaryhistory.com.
Regards
Bert
I think it is clear that "Fla" refers to Fliegerabwehr (anti-aircraft). So there were eight vehicles on the Fahrgestell (chassis) of Pz.Kpfwg. I with an AA gun in the Stabskompanie of this Gepanzerte Kampfgruppe. Here a pic with two Fahrgestell Pz.Kpfwg. I with a 2cm- Flak 38. Source of the pic: www.historicalsocietyofgermanmilitaryhistory.com.
Regards
Bert
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- Pz I Fla.png (169.58 KiB) Viewed 2071 times
- Dan Mouritzsen
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
The problem with the Gliederung with the Flakpanzer I. is it is from February 1945.The Flakpanzer I. should no longer be in service?
Dan
Dan
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Maybe (Fla) refers to Flammpanzer which would make some sense.
Rich
Rich
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Flakpanzer. I'd say Pz I chassis with a Drilling. A vehicle without any armored superstructure or weapon makes no sense in an armored combat unit.
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Hi Dan, hi Rich,
interesting replies. I have found two statements about Flammpanzer in staff companies:
"Zusätzlich erhielten die Stabskompanien später auch Panzerpionier- und Flammpanzer-Züge. "
"The Flammpanzerzug organization (Armored Flamethrower Platoon) was very basic, it simply had 7 Pz.Kpf.Wg.III flamethrower tanks."
But I have still doubts, that there were Flammpanzer I. Because in another source I have found a pic of a Flammpanzer I with the statement, that it was used only in Northern Africa. More likely is the use of Fahrschulpanzers with twin machine guns as AA machine guns like on Kfz. 4 Truppen-Luftschutz-Kraftwagen, therefore the tactical sign of 12 light machine guns.
Regards
Bert
interesting replies. I have found two statements about Flammpanzer in staff companies:
"Zusätzlich erhielten die Stabskompanien später auch Panzerpionier- und Flammpanzer-Züge. "
"The Flammpanzerzug organization (Armored Flamethrower Platoon) was very basic, it simply had 7 Pz.Kpf.Wg.III flamethrower tanks."
But I have still doubts, that there were Flammpanzer I. Because in another source I have found a pic of a Flammpanzer I with the statement, that it was used only in Northern Africa. More likely is the use of Fahrschulpanzers with twin machine guns as AA machine guns like on Kfz. 4 Truppen-Luftschutz-Kraftwagen, therefore the tactical sign of 12 light machine guns.
Regards
Bert
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- Flammpanzer I.png (213.52 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
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- Kfz. 4.png (255.78 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
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- Gp. Kpfgr..png (177.08 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Hi guys.
Fahrschulpanzers mit Zwillngslafette 36 - it's him?
Fahrschulpanzers mit Zwillngslafette 36 - it's him?
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Hi uncle,
thank You very much for posting this pic. That´s exactly what I was thinking of.
Best regards
Bert
thank You very much for posting this pic. That´s exactly what I was thinking of.
Best regards
Bert
- Dan Mouritzsen
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
I can only agree.Thanks
Dan
Dan
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Why are you calling them Fahrschule ? The abbreviation is for Panzer Fahrgestell and refers to any tank being used as a gun mount. Fahrshule vehicles were generally referred to as "Ohne aufbau". The abbreviation Fla is used to mean anti-aircraft mgs, Fl was used for Flamethrowers. I have seen Panzer I fitted with the 3,7cm Flak 18 and the Drilling at the end of the war.
Alan
- Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
There is a lot of speculation here, so just as a reminder, we do not know anything other than what the report says. The staff company reported eight Pz Fahrg. I (Fla), with no additional information. Unless additional period documents or photographs are discovered that is specific to these vehicles, we do not have enough information to determine what they were.
Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
(Fla) was a commonly/widley used abbrevation for Flak. So it should indicate a Panzer I chassis with some kind of Flak gun installed. Most likely some improvised unit hacks
- Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
While this isn't wrong, the way it's written is non-standard, which should instill caution (especially since one of the infantry divisions listed in the same report use the proper tactical symbol for its 37 mm-armed anti-aircraft guns on Pz Kpfw IV chassis). It also doesn't tell us anything about their armament or appearence.
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?
Fla was only commonly used to indicate an machine gun armed AA Unit, they just left the K for Kanone off the end.
Alan