Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

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Dan Mouritzsen
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Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#1

Post by Dan Mouritzsen » 06 Aug 2020, 01:05

I would very much like to hear your opinion on the line in the Gliederung.

Does it say?

( Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)

Or:

1 Bef.Wg.2 - IV L + 8 Pz. Fahrg. I (Fla)

If it is the first line (F) could mean Fahrschule panzer? Do any of you have a late war Gliederung from other units with Fahrschule panzers I. Marked like this - Pz. Fahrg. I (F)a)?

The photo is of some of the units Pz.I with Fahrschule panzers I. as No. 3, 4 and 5 in line.

Dan

5 = 5cm. Kanone.
K= 7,5cm. Kurtz Kanone.
L= 7,5cm. Lang Kanone.
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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#2

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Aug 2020, 13:27

I have a slightly higher resolution version, and it is clearly a 1 at the beginning.

Whether Fla refers to Fliegerabwehr or something else is a very good question.
Pz Fahrg. I.PNG


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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#3

Post by SIS 5 » 07 Aug 2020, 01:12

Hi Dan, hi Christian,

I think it is clear that "Fla" refers to Fliegerabwehr (anti-aircraft). So there were eight vehicles on the Fahrgestell (chassis) of Pz.Kpfwg. I with an AA gun in the Stabskompanie of this Gepanzerte Kampfgruppe. Here a pic with two Fahrgestell Pz.Kpfwg. I with a 2cm- Flak 38. Source of the pic: www.historicalsocietyofgermanmilitaryhistory.com.

Regards

Bert
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#4

Post by Dan Mouritzsen » 07 Aug 2020, 01:32

The problem with the Gliederung with the Flakpanzer I. is it is from February 1945.The Flakpanzer I. should no longer be in service?

Dan

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#5

Post by Pz III » 07 Aug 2020, 01:56

Maybe (Fla) refers to Flammpanzer which would make some sense.
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#6

Post by romsitsa » 07 Aug 2020, 11:49

Flakpanzer. I'd say Pz I chassis with a Drilling. A vehicle without any armored superstructure or weapon makes no sense in an armored combat unit.

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#7

Post by SIS 5 » 07 Aug 2020, 12:29

Hi Dan, hi Rich,

interesting replies. I have found two statements about Flammpanzer in staff companies:
"Zusätzlich erhielten die Stabskompanien später auch Panzerpionier- und Flammpanzer-Züge. "
"The Flammpanzerzug organization (Armored Flamethrower Platoon) was very basic, it simply had 7 Pz.Kpf.Wg.III flamethrower tanks."
But I have still doubts, that there were Flammpanzer I. Because in another source I have found a pic of a Flammpanzer I with the statement, that it was used only in Northern Africa. More likely is the use of Fahrschulpanzers with twin machine guns as AA machine guns like on Kfz. 4 Truppen-Luftschutz-Kraftwagen, therefore the tactical sign of 12 light machine guns.

Regards

Bert
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Flammpanzer I.png
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Kfz. 4.png
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#8

Post by uncle » 07 Aug 2020, 20:02

Hi guys.
Fahrschulpanzers mit Zwillngslafette 36 - it's him?
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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#9

Post by SIS 5 » 08 Aug 2020, 01:03

Hi uncle,

thank You very much for posting this pic. That´s exactly what I was thinking of.

Best regards

Bert

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#10

Post by Dan Mouritzsen » 08 Aug 2020, 01:53

I can only agree.Thanks

Dan

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#11

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 Aug 2020, 10:15

Why are you calling them Fahrschule ? The abbreviation is for Panzer Fahrgestell and refers to any tank being used as a gun mount. Fahrshule vehicles were generally referred to as "Ohne aufbau". The abbreviation Fla is used to mean anti-aircraft mgs, Fl was used for Flamethrowers. I have seen Panzer I fitted with the 3,7cm Flak 18 and the Drilling at the end of the war.
Alan

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#12

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 08 Aug 2020, 11:55

There is a lot of speculation here, so just as a reminder, we do not know anything other than what the report says. The staff company reported eight Pz Fahrg. I (Fla), with no additional information. Unless additional period documents or photographs are discovered that is specific to these vehicles, we do not have enough information to determine what they were.

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#13

Post by Denniss » 10 Aug 2020, 01:11

(Fla) was a commonly/widley used abbrevation for Flak. So it should indicate a Panzer I chassis with some kind of Flak gun installed. Most likely some improvised unit hacks

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#14

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 10 Aug 2020, 07:19

Denniss wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 01:11
(Fla) was a commonly/widley used abbrevation for Flak. So it should indicate a Panzer I chassis with some kind of Flak gun installed. Most likely some improvised unit hacks
While this isn't wrong, the way it's written is non-standard, which should instill caution (especially since one of the infantry divisions listed in the same report use the proper tactical symbol for its 37 mm-armed anti-aircraft guns on Pz Kpfw IV chassis). It also doesn't tell us anything about their armament or appearence.

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Re: Fahrschule or Flak panzer?

#15

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 10 Aug 2020, 19:40

Denniss wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 01:11
(Fla) was a commonly/widley used abbrevation for Flak. So it should indicate a Panzer I chassis with some kind of Flak gun installed. Most likely some improvised unit hacks
Fla was only commonly used to indicate an machine gun armed AA Unit, they just left the K for Kanone off the end.
Alan

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