"Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

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Mobius
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 06 Apr 2021 12:46

Peasant wrote:
01 Apr 2021 17:13
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
01 Apr 2021 16:57

Unless I am mistaken, the only projectiles that can 'reduce' effective armor thickness for slopes are either massively larger diameter shells, and APFSDS projectiles. The 85mm might overmatch the 50mm plate a lot, but for a 60-65mm plate I'm just not seeing it. Especially with Soviet quality control and shell design.

Isn't there a picture on this very thread which shows non-pens to the LFP?
Thats because it doesnt "reduce" the effective armour thickness. It's an illusion born from the inherently flawed concept that is the "effective armour thickness" that spawned a myth that soviet blunt tipped AP shells are much more effective against sloped armour than the conventional sharp tipped AP.
It's actually the other way around: the soviet shells are just less bad against thin plates at slope and penetrate about as much as an AP shell of their mass and caliber would. To put in into perspective: a 9,2kg 85mm APCBC shell fired at 800m/s would penetrate about 145mm/0° at 100m, if it had a more advanced design, similar to that of the shells of western nations. If we use this metric to measure how powerful a given gun is, it shouldnt surprise you that it can defeat relatively easily targets like the Panther's LFP.

About that picture: the original photo doesn't indicate from what "distance" those shot were taken, we have only the "artistic interpretation" of facts from the author, Yuri Pasholok, who's word I wouldn't trust farther than I can spit.
OK, I'll buy that. You obviously looked closely at the US graph of the Russian 122mm BR-471B projectile.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Yoozername » 07 Apr 2021 19:59

A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71
pant_hit_88.jpg
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 08 Apr 2021 00:34

Yoozername wrote:
07 Apr 2021 19:59
A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg
That's fair as the only rounds that penetrated the 100mm+100mm front armor of the Ferdinand was the 75mm APCR from a Panther gun.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 08 Apr 2021 09:47

Mobius wrote:
08 Apr 2021 00:34
Yoozername wrote:
07 Apr 2021 19:59
A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg
That's fair as the only rounds that penetrated the 100mm+100mm front armor of the Ferdinand was the 75mm APCR from a Panther gun.
Soviets obtained a penetration on the Ferdinand's driver's plate with the Panther's gun firing it's AP round at 100m:

Image

Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.

The shots at the casemate front (200mm/20°) from 200m left 170mm and 180mm dents with 10mm bulges at the back.
Last edited by Peasant on 08 Apr 2021 13:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 08 Apr 2021 12:53

Peasant wrote:
08 Apr 2021 09:47
Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.
The 'HeM' was the Soviet way of indicating 'APCR'.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 08 Apr 2021 13:06

Mobius wrote:
08 Apr 2021 12:53
Peasant wrote:
08 Apr 2021 09:47
Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.
The 'HeM' was the Soviet way of indicating 'APCR'.
Sorry Mobius, but you're wrong on this one. I'm a native russian speaker and I can tell you with 100% certainty that "Нем." stands for "Немецкий" aka "german" and "Бр." is a shorthand for "Бронобойный" aka AP.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 08 Apr 2021 13:42

This where I get that idea.
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 08 Apr 2021 13:54

Mobius wrote:
08 Apr 2021 13:42
This where I get that idea.
Yeah, idk where that's from but you should take that source with a grain of salt from now on. Here is what a hit with APCR shell looks like top left corner of the photo, right near the top edge of the plate): a shallow crater and a much smaller hole at it's center. Writing below it is Нем.
Подк.
with first two letters out of the picture.
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Mobius » 08 Apr 2021 15:05

It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Yoozername » 08 Apr 2021 15:13

I believe this is the source. Note, again, the 8cm side armor (nominal) of the Ferdinand is reported as 85 mm in the tests. The way I read it, all three shots are the same type projectile (whatever they are). the one 'cut-off' hit may be from another test shot or gun
85mm.jpg
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Peasant » 08 Apr 2021 16:14

Mobius wrote:
08 Apr 2021 15:05
It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.
"85mm Бр." is 85mm AP.

The half-erased writing near the other hole closest to the from the Panther's APCR hit says it's from a german 75mm AP
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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Yoozername » 08 Apr 2021 16:53

Mobius wrote:
08 Apr 2021 15:05
It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.
I sent you a PM for my source. I am not using Tank Archives.

The one upper left hit sure looks like 'Hem' also. According to the chart I posted, one 85 mm D5-T hit should be on the vertical side armor also. The chart also seems to describe similar sized holes.

Image

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Re: "Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

Post by Yoozername » 08 Apr 2021 18:10

Yoozername wrote:
07 Apr 2021 19:59
A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg
Besides the point of the UHP being 85 mm thick, I also wanted to show that even a 88mmL71 gun is not fully penetrating the armor at 600 meters. I really doubt a 85 mm would do much better. The tungsten round for this gun (85mm) uses a very small bolt btw.

Aiming for the LHP is not only a small target, but the downward descent of the projectile , albeit small, adds angle to the plate. IOW, makes it 'steeper'.

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