<Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

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ww2hase777dayan
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<Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by ww2hase777dayan » 01 May 2021 04:34

Hello,
I found an 8,8cm KwK 36 ammo diagram (red line frame) in the H.Dv.119/328 from NARA.
But the 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36 is new to me, and I don't have the info of the difference with 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr 40 Kwk.36 (I think 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40 Kwk.40 is miss spelling in the diagram) which was shown in the H.Dv.481/60.
I appreciate your any help or info about the "8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36".

Best wishes,
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Denniss
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Denniss » 01 May 2021 10:11

W= Weicheisen
viewtopic.php?t=99591

ww2hase777dayan
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by ww2hase777dayan » 01 May 2021 11:19

Hello Denniss,
Thank you for your reply!

Best regards,

Yoozername
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Yoozername » 01 May 2021 18:27

There was another thread where the numbers of HL were small and discontinued after a short time. I doubt if any of these (W) were ever used. But, the Tiger I, like the Panther, typically had it easy on the loader. Just AP or HE. i can't imagine being in a Panzer IV, and having AP, AP 40, HE, Heat, and possibly a smoke round or two.

Peasant
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Peasant » 02 May 2021 15:05

I know, as a tank commander, I would welcome to have more tactical options available with having various types of ammunition at hand.
I had no idea that the 7.5cm Pak/Kwk 42 and both 88mm on Tigers didn't have smoke shells made for them, but I've checked my sources and apparently it's true. I have no clue as to why this decision was made, as the Kwk 40 was capable of firing smoke shells from a high velocity gun and I don't think those guns are in any way different that would prevent them from doing so as well.

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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Yoozername » 02 May 2021 20:40

The Panther did not have Smoke or HL rounds. The Tiger I had very few HL rounds, and as I mentioned, it was discontinued. And, as has been mentioned before, no smoke rounds.

Apparently, the quick runup of the fleet size of KWK 40 and StuK 40 and pak 40 strained the manufacture of pzgr 39. Hence the need for HL rounds. But the Panther, which both used unique ammunition, had a slower runup of (running/fighting) fleet size.

The 88 mm AP projectiles were in large scale production for the FlaK guns before the Tiger I was fielded. The conversion to Pzgr 39 type projectiles may have been easier in this case.

An interesting thing about the (W) 88 mm round is that there is no true Tungsten round? Many people speculate that the (W) round was because they had carriers (empty projectiles) for the tungsten round, and used other materials as substitutes.

bam
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by bam » 28 May 2021 20:58

Yoozername wrote:
02 May 2021 20:40
An interesting thing about the (W) 88 mm round is that there is no true Tungsten round?
.
Do you mean the 88mm L.56 gun didn't have a AP40 tungsten round? Ian Hogg's book German Artillery of WW2 says there was one, and also for the 88mm L.71, (why did that gun need increased penetration?!!) I know he's an older source, is he wrong?

And does ANYONE know why the Germans didn't have any phosphorous smoke rounds? It baffles me why they missed this very useful weapon. Allies used them often...nothing better for clearing out an occupied building or bunker...and useful for smothering a tank you couldn't otherwise penetrate, e.g. Tigers frontally.

Yoozername
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Yoozername » 29 May 2021 00:11

Perhaps even he took 'W" to mean Tungsten? In any case, I just find it odd that the HL round, which was hardly made, and a W round are represented (and I know of no use of it). Typically the W rounds are represented along with AP40 type rounds.

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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 29 May 2021 04:38

bam wrote:
28 May 2021 20:58
Yoozername wrote:
02 May 2021 20:40
An interesting thing about the (W) 88 mm round is that there is no true Tungsten round?
.
Do you mean the 88mm L.56 gun didn't have a AP40 tungsten round? Ian Hogg's book German Artillery of WW2 says there was one, and also for the 88mm L.71, (why did that gun need increased penetration?!!) I know he's an older source, is he wrong?

And does ANYONE know why the Germans didn't have any phosphorous smoke rounds? It baffles me why they missed this very useful weapon. Allies used them often...nothing better for clearing out an occupied building or bunker...and useful for smothering a tank you couldn't otherwise penetrate, e.g. Tigers frontally.
As I understand it the early 75mm guns could fire smoke.
Nbgr. Kw. K.

critical mass
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by critical mass » 29 May 2021 08:41

The Pzgr.40W is a blunt nosed, ballistic capped monobloc slug without HE-filler. It contains no core and is ballistically matched to the Pzgr.40 Hk. The short projectile body is not heat treated and will break up striking targets. It works particularely well against high hardness armors by shattering against the plate and exploiting the lower resistence of hard homo plates against adiabitc shear failure, both at high and low obliquity, as long as the target plate is smaller than the projectile diameter.

bam
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by bam » 03 Jun 2021 21:50

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 May 2021 04:38
bam wrote:
28 May 2021 20:58

And does ANYONE know why the Germans didn't have any phosphorous smoke rounds? It baffles me why they missed this very useful weapon. Allies used them often...nothing better for clearing out an occupied building or bunker...and useful for smothering a tank you couldn't otherwise penetrate, e.g. Tigers frontally.
As I understand it the early 75mm guns could fire smoke.
Nbgr. Kw. K.
Yeah, I know of those rounds, I think there were some for 88mm too. But I did some research, and those rounds made smoke with chemical mixes, not with white phosphorous. Unless you know of a round documented to contain W.P. that I couldn't find?

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 04 Jun 2021 04:06

bam wrote:
03 Jun 2021 21:50
Yeah, I know of those rounds, I think there were some for 88mm too. But I did some research, and those rounds made smoke with chemical mixes, not with white phosphorous. Unless you know of a round documented to contain W.P. that I couldn't find?
Weird, now that I've looked about you're right. Germany only ever used chemicals to produce smoke and not the far more dangerous phosphorus.

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Grzesio
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by Grzesio » 11 Jun 2021 08:43

They, however, used phosphorous in incendiary ammunition - airdropped bombs and cannon projectiles.

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: <Question> 8,8cm Pzgr.Patr40(W) KwK36

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 11 Jun 2021 15:42

I wonder if any 88mm projectiles used Uranium cores like the few 30mm ones (and maybe some more?).

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