Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
usmc7285
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Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by usmc7285 » 12 Dec 2014 02:55

I am building a diorama with two Luchs. I bought both versions of the Tasca model. I'm having can hard time finding turret numbers for a late version Luchs(without the frontal armor). I was hoping someone could help me out.

Thanks in advance
Ron

SIS 5
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by SIS 5 » 12 Dec 2014 16:38

Hi Ron,

maybe You know this pic (source: "4 Panzer Division 1944 - 1945" by Andrzej kinski, Tomasz Nowakowski, Robert Sawicki, Mariusz Skotnicki).
Here the text to teh pic: A PzKpfw II Sd Kfz 123 "Luchs" scout tank of the 2nd company, 4th Panzer Reconaissance Battallion. An additional box container on the left rear mudguard is not standard, Belorussia, July, 1944.

Regards

Bert
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usmc7285
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by usmc7285 » 12 Dec 2014 23:17

Hey thanks Bert. Yes I have seen that photo and it's great for being able to see the placement of equipment. My problem is that I can't see the turret number. So for my "late version" Luchs, I don't know what two digit numbers to use. In the instructions for the 4. Panzer Division version each Zug or squad started with 1 and ended at 7. Example-1st squad tanks 11 through 17 and so on up through 4th squad or zug. I don't recall how the Germans called their Panzer squads. Maybe I can leave one without decals and portray it as a replacement being rushed to the front? Thanks again Bert for taking the time to help me.

Ron

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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by SIS 5 » 12 Dec 2014 23:59

Hi Ron,

the only other pic I can offer You is out of the book "Die deutschen Panzer 1926 - 1945" by F. M. von Senger und Ettelin. But it is confusing, because there are two turret numbers (41 and 34).

Regards

Bert
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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 13 Dec 2014 12:13

Bert, there are not "two" turret numbers but just the one split up on two boxes for convenience of painting, it is 4134. Recce units often had odd numbering systems to avoid confusion with the other "armoured" elements of the division.
Alan

usmc7285
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by usmc7285 » 13 Dec 2014 21:08

The 4134 is from the 9. Panzer Division correct? Normandy?
I haven't found any turret numbers on any Luchs from the 4. Panzer Division that don't have the frontal armor added and the idler racks.

spannermann
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by spannermann » 14 Dec 2014 12:41

Hi
Just to clarify 4134, the 9th Pz Div in Normandy had its own unique tactical identification method and used the first digit to identify a sub-unit of the division, so 4 equals Pz Aufkl Abt 9, thus the remaining 134 is the standard tactical numbering, being 1st Kompanie, 3rd Zug and 4th Vehicle.

cheers leonard paul

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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by SIS 5 » 14 Dec 2014 19:41

Hi Alan, hi leonard paul,

thank You very much for Your replies. Very interesting for me. I´ve found a drawing of a "Luchs", but I´m not sure is there everything o.k. with the number 40.
(source: "4 Panzer Division 1943 - 1944" by Andrzej kinski, Tomasz Nowakowski, Robert Sawicki, Mariusz Skotnicki).

Regards

Bert
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spannermann
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by spannermann » 15 Dec 2014 11:13

Hi,

There is a photo of Lynx number 40 in the "4 Pz Div 1944" Concord Publication by Robert Michulec. Page 7.

cheers leonard paul

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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by Tougua » 12 Aug 2021 12:19

<r><QUOTE author="spannermann" post_id="1914779" time="1418557282" user_id="20474"><s>
spannermann wrote:
14 Dec 2014 12:41
</s>
Hi<br/>
Just to clarify 4134, the 9th Pz Div in Normandy had its own unique tactical identification method and used the first digit to identify a sub-unit of the division, so 4 equals Pz Aufkl Abt 9, thus the remaining 134 is the standard tactical numbering, being 1st Kompanie, 3rd Zug and 4th Vehicle.<br/>
<br/>
cheers leonard paul
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Hi Leonard Paul,

Apologies for dredging up a 7-year old post, but I'm after information about 9. Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung and was intrigued by your comment about the 4-digit numbering system used by the 9th Pz Div in Normandy. Would this numbering system have applied to all vehicles in the Abteilung, including halftracks? Do you know where I might find more information about vehicle numbering?

Thanks,

Michael

spannermann
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by spannermann » 13 Aug 2021 19:00

Hi Michael,
Yes, that was a long time ago, but there is sufficient evidence to know that this division did tactically number many of its sub-units using a fourth number, this fourth number was based on the position of the sub-unit in the divisional gliederung, see attachment.

SO far this is belkieved to be the only German division to used this method of sub-unit identification and not the regulation tactical signs.

However not all parts of the division seemed to have used a fourth number, but certainly PzAA 9, Pz Jag Abt 50 and Pz Art Rgt 102 did going by photographic evidence.

PzAA 9, various Luchs, 4135 for example of the 1st Kompanie
Pz Jag Abt 50, a Marder II with the number 5223, being from the 2nd Kompanie
Pz Art Rgt 102, a Hummel with the number 6313 and gun "C", being from the 3rd Batterie

But the panzer regiment seemed to stick with the regular three digit number system, but the PzIV's were the I Abt and the Panthers were the II Abt.

No photographic evidence exist for other sub-units so far as I know.

A couple of SdKfz 251 ausf D ko'd in Normandy have been attributed to the 9 Panzer Division, but not truly proven, tactical numbers 622x and 2026, both have identical number styles and locations and balken cross styles and positions, but............. ?

hope this helps, by the way this division marking arrangement is not my invention, but several different people came to the same conclusion a few years ago.

cheers PAUL
img156 - Copy.jpg
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spannermann
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by spannermann » 15 Sep 2021 16:21

Hi Michael,

Did you see the information above, any comments, is it what you wanted ?

cheers PAUL

bam
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by bam » 19 Sep 2021 14:54

For 4th Pz.Div, heres a Luchs with stern antennae for the 80watts Fu12 radio, turret number 41:
.
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-090-3915-18A_Russland_Soldat_im_Panzerturm.jpg
.
The Luchs had a remarkable longevity in 4th PD. According to Panzertracts 2-2, 2nd Komp.P.z.AA4 received 29 Luchs in Sept 43, 7 Luchs in each of 4 Kompanies, plus 1 for the C.O. There were still 16 left in March 1945.

These had the newer Clutch-brake steering units that replaced the original triple radius units, which had proved so useless when issued with 2.Kp.Pz.AA9's 29 vehicles, (which fought in Citadel) that only 5 were left serviceable by August 5th, so they returned all 25 survivors to the factory in Sept for refitting with clutch-brake steering.
Pz.AA9 were then reissued 25 for action in Normandy, where they lost the lot in 1 month!

The strength returns for Pz.AA.4, 4thPD, are: 27 end Oct 43, 22 in Jan 44, 22 in Mar, 23 in June, 21 in Aug, 19 in Oct, 16 in Dec, 24 in Jan 45, 20 in Feb, 16 in March. The unit received 17 new replacements during that time, so total issue 29+17=46. So one third of their vehicles survived after 18 months continuous fighting in the worst parts of the Ostfront, during continuous defeats and retreats. Remarkable. That they could even keep such a rare vehicle serviced, considering it had a unique engine used nowhere else, unique wheels, tracks, gears etc.

I have read that the very last Luchs were still fighting in May 1945 on the Frisches Nehrung, the thin sandy spit that linked Pillau in the east (which fell on 25 April) with the western side of the Baltic bay, near the outflow of the Vistula, where the remains of 4th PD and the 2nd Army held out until the end of the war, under Gen Dietrich von Saucken (last winner of KC Diamonds, #27).
The 4th PD and its Luchs were the Nehrung fire brigade, as a rearguard slowly retreating west pursued by the Soviets from Pillau, and crushing amphibious landings in their rear as the Soviets tried to outflank the frontlines. Probably an ideal vehicle for fighting on a 300m wide sand dune with minimal cover.
Bam.
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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 20 Sep 2021 18:17

Bam, you've made a typo in your first sentence, it should be 7 in each of four platoons, not Kompanies, we are after all talking about a single company here.
Alan

bam
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Re: Panzer Luchs 4. Panzer Division

Post by bam » 21 Sep 2021 12:33

Thanks Alan, shame I can't correct it, edit has timed out..

Should say: "7 Luchs in each of 4 Zugs"

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