21 st Panzer, Normandy

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yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 08 Jan 2022 21:10

Hi Spannerman.

That Gliederung must have been made up of all French coversions, maybe made up of these.

7.5cm GW Lrs(f)
10.5cm GW 39H(f)
15cm GW Lrs(f)

Ian

spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 08 Jan 2022 21:41

Hi,
The Gliederung clearly show only two types of SP's in this unit, 7,5cm and 10,5cm, no 15cm guns .

5th Batterie is yet to appear.

cheers
pictures_0001.jpg
img127.jpg
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Sean Oliver
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sean Oliver » 09 Jan 2022 04:15

The monthly Gliederunen sent to Insp.Pz.Tr. are seldom very accurate, as is apparent when they're compared to Army/Corps/Divisional-level records. But if that's the only evidence of the unit's Zustand, then those monthly reports for Berlin will have to do.

Here's two crops of Becker's Stug.Abt.200 maps as published in Dalgleish's book. It shows all 5 Batteries with 5-6 Pak and 4 Haubitze each, plus 2 MRL halftracks, a tracked radio unit and what might be 6 mortar halftracks around Cagny, dated around July 18 1944 according to author. These maps certainly appear authentic.
Becker's papers incl these maps are deposited at the IWM (not BAMA apparently).
Becker's Bttys Goodwood.jpg
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Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 09 Jan 2022 04:53

WoW, that’s detail :)

Simon Trew 1
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Simon Trew 1 » 10 Jan 2022 11:03

For sources that shed light on the order of battle of the divisional assault gun battalion (and other units), see the list provided at:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=261434

See also:

‘Sturm Geschütz [sic] Abt (Sturm Geschütz Brigade) – Assault Gun Battalion (Assault Gun Brigade): From original German document’ (MIRS/Apprec/MAR/68/44, 5 September 1944). This British intelligence report provides a detailed summary of German assault gun tactics as described in a captured document. Although it is not stated explicitly, the original document describes the employment of 21st Panzer Division’s assault gun battalion. The report also discusses other captured documents relating to the use of Sturmgeschütze in Normandy. The report is in the UK National Archives, WO 208/3180.

The latter document looks at first glance like a general piece of doctrine on the use of German assault guns. Closer inspection shows, however, that it is specific to the organisation and equipment of 21st Panzer Division's assault gun battalion. As usual, files that I need now are at work (where I'm not) but next time I go into the office I'll recover my 21st Pz Div files and remind myself of the contents of the document before summarising its key points here.

Sean - TVM for the suggestion that Becker's papers are in the IWM. I didn't know that. It was one of the questions I had in my posting identified above, so I'll follow up that lead. As you probably know, very sadly Ian Daglish died a few years ago and so it is no longer possible to find out how he came by Becker's papers. If it was something as simple as getting them from the IWM, then I'd hope to see them too.

Best,

Simon

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 10 Jan 2022 21:51

yantaylor wrote:
08 Jan 2022 21:06
Alan.
How are you.
So did the 5. Kompanie have 12 x Sd.Kfz 251/1s in two Infantry Platoons ? maybe commanded by the single 251/10?

Ian
Ian, we are talking about the 5th Battery of Stug Abt 200 here, not a panzergrenadier unit.
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 11 Jan 2022 20:58

Alan, and I was still referring to the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21 and its 5. (schwere) Kp. (27 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1)). Yes things had moved on a touch but only by two posts and changed to StuG Abt 200.
I know they are not a panzer grenadier unit but the platoon still had a number of Sd.Kfz 251s which had no named role so I wanted to know if these dozen or so had a role for carrying Infantry or Engineers.
The 5. Schwere Kompanie had 27 m.SPWs, now you said that they were used as;

6 x 251/9 Stummel
1 x 251/10
2 x 251/16
5 x tows for 3 x Pak40s & 2 x 7,5cm leIG18
1 x 251/3

15 in total which leaves 12, so all I was asking was the role these dozen played in the unit.

Regards
Ian

VW_Schwimmwagen
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by VW_Schwimmwagen » 11 Jan 2022 21:32

Does anyone happen to know if the 21st Panzer division received any new Schwimmwagens in April / May 1944?

spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 11 Jan 2022 22:03

Hi Ian,
There is always a lot of confusion about sub-units of the 21st Pz Div, and the PzAA 21 is no exception.
It would be best to first establish what level of PzAA they are trying to be, and that is a Typ 43 PzAA, the typically prescribed  OOB  for a 5th Company Typ 43 Pz AA is a Stab and four zug containing;-

Stab, 1x 250/3 and 1x 250/2
6x 251/9 plus 1x 251/3 Zug Chef plus 1x 251/4 for munitions
3x 251/4 with 3x Pak 40 plus 1x 251/3 Zug Chef plus 1x 251/4 for munitions
2x 251/4 with 2x leIG 18 plus 241/4 Zug Chef plus 1x 251/4 for munitions
6x 251/7 plus 1x 251/10 Zug Chef.

This is of course 26x SPW's, its the Zug Chef and munition 251's that seem to get forgotten about when adding up totals.

However PzAA 21 was a bit of an oddity but did follow quite closely the Typ 43 PzAA arrangements.

There are no 251/16 in this Typ 43 PzAA OOB but PzAA 21 seemed to have had two in their OOB somewhere. so that is 24x 251's and 2x 250's (these could often be 2x 251's)

What the 27th 251 was or where it is located in the Pz AA is unknown, if indeed having 27x 251's is correct.

There are no infantry in this company, they are to be found in the 3rd and 4th companies.

cheers

yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 12 Jan 2022 21:57

Thanks SM, that is very helpful.

I always tend to think that these sub-units based in France would be more likely to be using captured gear, so I thought I would find a unit like this to equipped with U304(f) half tracks and not modern vehicles like 250s and 251s.

Regards
Ian

Sam Wren
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sam Wren » 13 Jan 2022 01:19

21.PD was primarily equipped with French vehicles, but Pz AA 21 was created by the merging of Pz.AA 21 (neu) which consisted of a Stab & two companies at the time with Pz.Aufkl. Lehr Abt. which was equipped with German AFVs (there may have been non-German soft skins and motorcycles) and by all accounts the AFVs were all German. There is a discussion from 2001 that includes the composition of Pz. AA 21 but it looks like everything before 2002 has been wiped or lost.

yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 13 Jan 2022 15:00

Thanks Sam, wonderful mate.

I have another question, but I don't know if I should post it here or open another thread, but seeing it is sd.kfz 251 related, I hope you all forgive me if I post it here.

In the 1944 Panzer grenadier Kompanies, you see two Sd.Kfz 251/17s in the heavy platoon to carry the HMGs, but I don't think the 251/17 was in use till after Normandy, so would these be 251/10s or simply just 251/1s.
I was thinking that the Kompanie was made up of four armoured platoons, each Pz gren. platoon leader had a 251/10, so would the platoon leader of the heavy platoon have a 251/10 too and the two HMG 251s be just regular 251/1s.

Thanks
Ian

Sam Wren
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sam Wren » 13 Jan 2022 16:23

Here is an old thread about Sd.Kfz 251/17 in Normandy
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missing ... 38009.html

Basically, the Sd.Kfz. 251/17, though authorized in the K.St.N of the time, were not produced in time to make it to Normandy as far as known. While some units produced Gliederungen that indicated they had 251/17s on hand, these apparently were not "official" Sd.Kfz 251/17. There are photographs showing that 2.SS Das Reich had on hand field modified 251s in which the 2 cm guns of Sd.Kfz 222 had been transplanted to create the equivalents of the Sd.Kfz 251/17 and other units did the same thing or similar using German, French or Italian 20cm-30cm guns, but I have yet to see evidence that any production 251/17s were issued to Normandy in time to reach any of the units there before they crossed the Seine.

yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 14 Jan 2022 15:04

Sam, what I have been doing over the last couple of years is compiling a Panzergrenadier company Normandy circa early summer 1944, I am now just trying to build the last two sdkfz 251s for the HMG teams, this is how I am thinking of planning it;

Heavy weapons Platoon:
Platoon HQ (Sdkfz 251/10)
2 x HMG sections (two Sdkfz 251/1s)
Mortar section (Two Sdkfz 2581/2s
Gun section (two Sdkfz 251/9s)

Thats how I am hoping to do.
Ian

Chris T G
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Chris T G » 15 Jan 2022 00:51

I'm not sure if this is on point or if it might help, but I raised the question of the use of 6 or so Sdkfz 250 half tracks fitted with 2cm cannon as fire support vehicles in by the 3rd company of PzAA 21.
The gun had been identified in what I'd read as both the French 2cm and the German Kwk 30.
It was answered by a man I understand had helped write the lists for the game I played at the time and it related to a number of photos showing a possible candidate.
The images show a 250 undergoing maintenance and a 2cm Kwk 30 is fitted on a bracket in place of the Mg42. The crew are in coveralls, but their caps display the Wermacht eagle and not the SS eagle and skull.
The vehicle's number's 342 and he advised that this corresponded with the 4th platoon of the 3rd company.
My laptop is US at the moment, but the reference number of one of the images is-
Bundersarchiv Militarchiv BA 1011-495-3436-16.

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