Jagdtiger with 8.8cm Pak 43 L/71?

[LV]

Hi!

I'm wondering whether there's any proof that a few Jagtigers were armed with the 8.8cm Pak 43? Any penetration data for the 12.8cm Pak 80 (44) L/55?

[Homerr]

I've never seen photographic evidence, but apparently several were so fitted for the battle of Berlin.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

The existance of eight Jagdtigers with 8,8 cm Pak 43s is documented through German documents (see the original Panzer Tracts 9), however no photographs have been shown of this at this point. That they should have fought in Berlin is rather unlikely, though, since they were the last of the Jagdtigers manufactured, were assembled at Nibelungenwerk in Austria, and were most likely have been crewed by the 653.s.Pz.Jäg.Abt., which surrendered in Austria.

In regards to armour penetration, see <http://www.panzerworld.net/armourpenetration.html>.

[bryson109]

Jagdtigers armed with 8.8cm (due to lack of 12.8cm guns) did not have gun sights, and were not taken into action. All were destroyed as American forces neared Nibelungen Werk factory.

[Braendle]

Michael Reynolds states in his book, that 2 Jagdtigers were delivered to 1.SS Pz.Div LAH between 1st and 8th May in order to replace lost the TigerII tanks (should be the last 2 to be delivered at all), but one of them a mechanical breakdown during delivery-run, the second ran out of gas and was used as a road-blockade.

[Tratt]

There is quite a bit of information on these last Jagdtigers used by the LAH in Patrick Agte's book on Jochen Peiper, at pages 528-9

During this period the latest version of the Tiger II, the Jagdtiger ("Hunting Tiger"), was issued to the Leibstandarte's Panzer regiment. This oversized tank destroyer, with 20cm of frontal armor and its mighty 12.8cm gun, was practically invincible. There were 70 Hunting Tigers produced. To pick up the Hunting Tigers, veteran crews from schwere SS-Panzerabteilung 501 were pulled out of infantry action and sent by truck in the final days of April through Amstetten to St. Valentin an der Enns. There were six Hunting Tigers at the Hermann Goering Works there which, however, were not provided with the 12.8cm but the 8.8cm gun. The tank destroyers were not yet operational, so that the crews themselves had to lend a hand. SS-Untersturmfuehrer Waldemar Warnecke, responsible for getting ammunition for these tank destroyers, was able to take delivery of sufficient rounds and stow them inside the Hunting TIger. After all the machine guns, radios and other pieces of equipment were installed and a few driving exercises carried out, all six Hunting Tigers moved into Panzergruppe Peiper's operational area. SS-Untersturmfuehrer Warnecke and Hahn drove four Hunting Tigers on 4 May 1945 through Amstetten and Purgstall into the area of Schreibbs. The two other Hunting Tigers moved on Federal Highway 8 (Linz-St Polten) on the following day.

Agte cites an unpublished manuscript written by SS-Unterscharfuehrer Hans Dorn of the LAH as his source.

Agte also sets out a long report by SS-Sturmann Ernst Kufner (a radio operator in one of the Hunting Tigers) in which Kufner describes the events of 7-9 May 1945 including the destruction of his Hunting Tiger by the crew to make a roadblock to stop pursuing Soviet forces.

Agte goes on (citing Dorn's manuscript):

After Waidhofen, Jochen Peiper's car headed southwest to Weyer-Markt, where he met SS-Untersturmfuehrer Warnecke and the four Hunting Tigers providing covering. He ordered him to blow up the tank destroyers. After they had been driven into an open area, the Hunting Tigers were blown up and the crews crossed the Enns and went into captivity on 10 May 1945 at Altenmarkt.

It seems these last Jagdtigers may have been intended for sPzJAbt 653 but that the LAH grabbed them first, at page 450 of Munch's combat history of 653 he sets out a report by Unteroffizer Horst Theis, which includes this passage:

Sixteen crews were assembled here and departed for the Nibelungen Works on 30.04.45 to pick up new guns [ie Jagdtigers] for the "Final Battle". During the night of 6 May 1945 the Americans reached the Enns, the demarcation line with the Russians. Since the SS had snatched the new Jagdtigers out from under our noses, we drove to the Alps as a consolidated group on 06.05.45 as we had no desire to be captured by the Russians.

So it seems like these last six Hunting Tigers with 8.8cm guns did see active service with LAH, but there is no reference in Agte's book to them actually seeing combat.

[LV]

In regards to armour penetration, see <http://www.panzerworld.net/armourpenetration.html>.

Those penetration figures for the Pak 80 seem to be quite humble to say the least. In fact they seem to indicate that the Pak 80 (V0 920 m/s, 28,3 kg projectile) was less powerful than the Pak 43 (V0 1000 m/s, 10,2 kg projectile). Btw what's up with the "Pzgr." round for the Pak 80? I thought that it fired only Pzgr. 43 and the 12.8 cm Sprgr. Where did you get the penetration data? I would guess that the Pak 80 was capable of penetrating something like 250mm @ 0 deg. and 200mm @ 30 deg. from 1000 meters.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Tratt
Unless we can verify that the manuscript Agte is referring to was actually written at the time the events happened, and not after the war, it has no true authority. Unterlüss reports made by the German scientists for Allied intelligence around 1947 has many errors. The number of Jagdtigers manufactured is wrong in the text piece, and the fact that this information is included leads one to believe that the manuscript was written well after the war, at a time where memories would be far to blurred by post-war books to have any significance at all.

LV
The penetration data is from the original German test data sheets. I don't have access to the calculated data from Livingston & Bird at the moment, unfortunately, but the calculated penetration results for both weapons are considerably higher. The main advantage of the 12,8 cm Pak 80 is the heavier HE rounds, which to some extent is negated by the much heavier rounds.

[Tratt]

Which bit of the report do you think is inaccurate Christian?

And which report? Agte provides considerable detail from two (by Dorn and Kufner) which refer in detail to the LAH's use of this vehicle. The fact that the LAH took these last Hunting Tigers is also supported by the report by the 653 NCO quoted in Munch's book.

[T. A. Gardner]

Andrew Devey in his book Jagdtiger The MOst Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II states that only 4 8.8cm vehicles were completed in April 45: Wk nrs 305078 - 305081. He also states that none were issued as there were no optics for the guns and no ammunition available. Wk nrs 305082 - 305084 had 12.8cm guns while 305085 - 088 with 8.8cm guns probably were not completed.

[LV]

LV
The penetration data is from the original German test data sheets. I don't have access to the calculated data from Livingston & Bird at the moment, unfortunately, but the calculated penetration results for both weapons are considerably higher. The main advantage of the 12,8 cm Pak 80 is the heavier HE rounds, which to some extent is negated by the much heavier rounds.

OK, but what is this "Pzgr." projectile that you mentioned? Are you sure that it existed alongside the Pzgr. 43? What's the book by Livingston and Bird? I still seems impossible to me that the Pak 80 had less penetration power than the Pak 43; wouldn't that almost be against the laws of physics?

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Tratt
The production number is wrong. In regards to the rest of the information, then it should be considered at least inaccurate if not wrong unless substantiated by war-time records stating otherwise.

T. A. Gardner
Devey's books has some inaccuracies, and since he doesn't - as far as I can remember - cite a source for that piece of information, it is difficult to know whether he got it from German, Allied or post-war sources (of which only the first can be considered accurate).

LV
Pzgr. would be the standard ammunition (unlike Pzgr.43 which was only made in very small numbers, and not issued as far as I know). The Livingston and Bird book is the book World War II Ballistics : Armor and Gunnery, which has calculated armour penetration numbers for all the main WWII guns.

[LV]

Pzgr. would be the standard ammunition (unlike Pzgr.43 which was only made in very small numbers, and not issued as far as I know). The Livingston and Bird book is the book World War II Ballistics : Armor and Gunnery, which has calculated armour penetration numbers for all the main WWII guns.

In Hahn's Waffen und Geheimwaffen he states that Jagdtigers used two different types of ammunition: 12.8cm Sprgr. and Pzgr. 43/1. Spielberger also holds that the AP shell was Pzgr. 43. I wonder where they got the info? I don't have the book right know with me but Hahn also says that the penetration was something like 250 mm @ 0 deg./1000 m, if I remember correctly. How do Livingston and Bird calculate armor penetration? I'm sure that you can come up with calculated estimates if you know the exact characteristics of the ammunition and gun, but are these calculations of any real value?

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Waffen und Geheimwaffen has a lot of errors in addition to some of the interesting data there.

As I recall, the Pzgr. Patr. 43 series was the APCR series.

Livingston and Bird uses de Marres' formula, which to my knowledge is the most-used formula for calculating armour penetration. Because they are calculated, they eliminate the discrenpresies of different testing systems and angles, and thus make the results more comparable.

[LV]

Waffen und Geheimwaffen has a lot of errors in addition to some of the interesting data there.

As I recall, the Pzgr. Patr. 43 series was the APCR series.

Livingston and Bird uses de Marres' formula, which to my knowledge is the most-used formula for calculating armour penetration. Because they are calculated, they eliminate the discrenpresies of different testing systems and angles, and thus make the results more comparable.

Well, the Pzgr. 43 was actually APCBC-HE, similar to Pzgr. 39. It was a 28,3 kg shell with a 550 gram explosive filler. My guess would be that any stories of 128 mm APCRs fall in the same category of fantasies as the Germans making APCR cores of uranium. Wasn't there a guy called Michael Rausch, a real ammunition expert? Maybe he could be of help?