TIGER TANKS AT SALERNO

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mngray
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TIGER TANKS AT SALERNO

#1

Post by mngray » 11 Dec 2002, 15:39

Many of the books (especially the older ones) refer repeatedly to Tiger tanks at Salerno (16 Pz Div). Was there a tendency at this time to call anything German a Tiger? Other accounts refer to a Mk IV Special. Which model was the Mk IV Special - or again did the Allies just call them all Mk IV Specials if they didn't know which Model it was? If anybody can tell me how many and precisely which type of tnaks the following were equipped with on 9 Sep 43 I'd be grateful: 16 Pz Div, HG Pz Div, 26 Pz Div, 15 PG Div, 29 PG Div. Thanks.

MNG

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David Lehmann
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#2

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 19:06

Perhaps I am wrong but I thought that in Sicily and then the first engagements in Italy (Salerno) the only unit who had Tigers was the Herman Göring division with about 17 of them. And also I thought that most of them were abandonned or destroyed in Sicily. Are you sure that the 16. PzD had Tigers ? In Salerno the HG had PzIII, PzIV and StugIIIG as far as I know.


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#3

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Dec 2002, 19:31

No Tigers at Salerno as none of the Tiger Abteilung got that far south. Herman Goering did have some Tigers(3?) in 1945 in Germany but none in 1943.

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David Lehmann
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#4

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 20:10

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/ ... tion_3.htm

for the whole text ...

SICILY

Altogether, 17 Tigers were gathered on Sicily: the original nine Tigers from the 2.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 , the two Tigers that had been issued as replacements to the schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 in February, and the six Tigers issued in April 1943 to the schwere Panzer-Zug for Panzer-Abteilung 215 .

On 9 July 1943, the 2.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 was ordered to reorganize in accordance with the new TOE dated 5 March 1943, with three Tigers as a reserve. After reorganization, the 2.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 was to become incorporated as an integral part of Panzer-Division 'Hermann Goering' .

The fate of the 17 Tigers on Sicily was reported by Major Gierga, commander of Panzer-Abteilung 215 , in the following report to the General Inspekteur der Panzertruppen dated 25 August 1943:

On orders from the Division , at the start of July I transferred the 17 Tigers from the Abteilung to Panzer-Regiment 'Hermann Goering' .

Before the transfer, I proposed to the commander, Oberstleutnant Urban, as well as the division supply and technical officers, to give them a complete Werkstatt-Zug that was already entrusted with repair of Tigers along with elements of the Bergezug in exchange for one of their Werkstatt-Zuege . Successful recovery and repair of the new Tigers would be questionable without this exchange. The proposal was rejected by Panzer-Division 'Herrmann Goering' with the excuse that an exchange was out of question; instead, only transfers from my Abteilung were to occur. I reported this to my division commander. After telephone calls between General Rodt and General von Senger, I was ordered to give up the 10 special mechanics, all of the special tools, all replacement parts, as well as the portal crane along with the 17 Tigers. Because of transport difficulties, Panzer Regiment 'Herrmann Goering' did not pick up all these replacement parts, so that part of them (rubber tires, roadwheels and more) in addition to about 80 tons of 8.8 cm ammunition were left lying behind and fell into enemy hands.

Based on the after-action report from the Tiger-Kompanie and the report from Leutnant Goldschmidt, the last commander of the Tiger-Kompanie , at the beginning of the campaign the Tiger-Kompanie was assigned to Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 'Henrice'. The Panzer-Grenadiere interfered with the employment of the Tiger-Kompanie and the terrain was insufficiently scouted, so that several Tigers became bogged down in the mud. The Tigers became separated from our own infantry, so they were cut off, making repair or recovery impossible.

Ten Tigers had already been lost during the first three days when they were blown up to prevent capture. Of the remaining seven Tigers, three more were lost by 20 July when they caught fire or were blown to prevent capture. The excess Tiger crews were employed as infantry at the Gerbini Airfield, despite the strongest arguments from the Tiger-Kompanie commander. During the further retreat, employed as a rearguard, three of the last four Tigers broke down and were blown to prevent capture. The portal crane, so important for repairing Tigers, was blown up by the Werstatt-Kompanie . The last Tiger was transported across the straits to the mainland of Italy.

ITALY

Having been pulled out of Russia in July 1943 in response to the landings in Sicily, Panzer-Grenadier-Division 'Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler' (LSSAH) was refitted and send to Italy in August 1944. Attached to the division were elements of the nearly formed schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung of the I.SS-Panzer-Korps LSSAH with the 27 Tigers that had been issued to it in July. Responding to the threat caused by the Italian change in allegiance, LSSAH with the 27 Tigers remained in northern Italy through mid-October, when they were transferred back to the Eastern Front. None of the 27 Tigers were lost in Italy. Considering the driving conditions in the mountainous terrain, their operational status remained fairly high.

Before the loss of Sicily, eight Tigers were shipped from the ordinance depot on 28 July to outfit an independent unit destined to Italy. Known as Tigergruppe Meyer , this small unit consisting of two Zuege each with four Tigers, was attached to Panzer-Jaeger-Abteilung 48 from August through November 1943. By 4 February 1944, the unit, re designated as Tigergruppe Schwebbach , was attached to the LXXVI.Panzer-Korps to attack the bridgehead created by the Allied landing at Anzio.

The Allies attempted to bypass the defensive line by landing at Anzio-Netuno but failed to penetrate inland. In response, the OKH organized and sent a special force of armor consisting of 45 Tigers in schwere Panzer-Abteilung 508 , 76 Panthers with the I.Abteilung/Panzer-Abteilung 4 , 11 Ferdinands with the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 653 , 57 Sturmpanzer with Sturmpanzer-Abteilung 216 , and 30 Sturmgeschuetze with Panzer-Abteilung (Fkl) 301 to drive the Allies back into the sea.

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 508 had been unloaded at a railhead 200 kilometers from the Allied landing site. About 60 percent of the Tigers suffered mechanical failures due to problems negotiating the narrow, sharply twisting mountain roads. instead of a significant force of 45 Tigers, it arrived at the front in bits and pieces with only eight Tigers operational on 23 and 24 February. Their operational strength gradually built up to over 30 by the end of the month, but this force was unable to make a significant dent in the Allied bridgehead. On 11 March, the surviving crews and Tigers of Tigergruppe Schwebbach were incorporated into schwere Panzer-Abteilung 508 .


-------> In 1943, 17 Tigers I have been detached to HG division but most of them were lost in Sicily. Few Tigers I were engaged in Italy in 1943 (Panzerjäger Abt 48 from august to november) ... In Salerno, to counter the allied landing, germans had about 100 panzer but obviously no Tiger I ... Initially the 16. PzD, later came HG and 26. PzD which shifted from Rome to Salerno. Later again reinforcements consisted of 15., 26. and 29. PzGD (in September). So no Tiger present in the Salerno area but yes the HG had Tigers before in Sicily. Where was Panzerjäger Abt 48 with its Tiger in 1943 ? any info ?

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Maple 01
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#5

Post by Maple 01 » 11 Dec 2002, 20:59

45 Tigers in schwere Panzer-Abteilung 508
Panzermeyer, are these the same Tigers in the Pink Floyd song
'The day the tigers broke free?'
A very emotive song about the destruction of the Royal Fusiliers holding the Anzio bridgehead. Anyone got any info of the battle - I mean if it actually happened.

'And the generals gave thanks as the other ranks
held be the enemy tanks - for a while
And then the Anzio beachhead was held for the price
of a few hundred ordinary lives'


Regards

-nick

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David Lehmann
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#6

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 21:28

why not ? but really I don't know, and I have to admit I don't even know the song although I have several Pink Floyd albums :?

Michael Kenny
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Tigers and Unit designation....................

#7

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Dec 2002, 21:28

sPzKp. Meyer did not see any action in 1943 and the nearest it got was in helping disarm surrendering Italian Units. Its first combat was at Anzio on 26/01/44. The frequent name changes you list are confusing but I always understood that whilst Tiger 'units' were attached to higher formations they were never organic parts of the new units. They were always Corps assetts. 'Meyer' spent all of 1943 training in northern Italy.

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David Lehmann
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#8

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 21:39

Yes I do agree with you, Tigers saw no action in Italy in 1943 but before in Sicily they did with the HG Division ... :)
Tiger units are mostly independant yes but for example the Tigers of the GD are organic to the division or am I wrong ?

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#9

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Dec 2002, 23:00

GD and Totenkopf both kept their Tiger kp. when the other Units lost theirs to the newly formed heavy battalions but that was on the Eastern Front. In the West as far as I am aware, Tigers were allocated where needed but always operated in the formations they arrived in and never became part of the parent Unit. Whilst I can read a lot on sPzAbt. 504 actions in Sicily in 1943 I can find nothing about HG Tigers in 1943.

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David Lehmann
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#10

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 23:17

I have just read a book about HG (from Jean Mabire) that's why I am quiet sure but it could be only for a very short time or the author could be wrong and it was only a temporary attachment. Nevertheless different texts and also on the net talk about the 2.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 that become incorporated as an integral part of Panzer-Division 'Hermann Göring'. But Nevermind, there were Tigers in Sicily and to answer the question of the thread not in Salerno in 1943 but later in Anzio yes.

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#11

Post by MaPen » 11 Dec 2002, 23:24

Panzermeyer wrote:why not ? but really I don't know, and I have to admit I don't even know the song although I have several Pink Floyd albums :?
"When the Tigers Broke Free" was never published on an album. But it's in the movie The Wall.

lyrics:

When the Tigers Broke Free
It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black 'forty four.
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn.
And the Generals gave thanks
As the other ranks held back
The enemy tanks for a while.
And the Anzio bridgehead
Was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And kind old King George
Sent Mother a note
When he heard that father was gone.
It was, as I recall,
In a form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all.
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.
And my eyes still grow damp to remember
His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around.
There was frost in the ground
When the tigers broke free.
And no one survived
From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying.
And that's how the High Command
Took my daddy from me.

http://home.mchsi.com/~ttint/firsttigers.html
http://home.mchsi.com/~ttint/secondtigers.html

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David Lehmann
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#12

Post by David Lehmann » 11 Dec 2002, 23:29

thanks :)

Michael Kenny
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#13

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Dec 2002, 06:51

Panzermeyer that site you quote from is a word for word copy of Jentz's book on Tiger combat tacticss. I am suprised they are so blatant about it. I looked into this Tiger attachment to HG and it seems that all except one of the Tigers were lost within 7 weeks of the order transfering them to HG. As HG did not take the heavy repair company or all the spare parts the Tigers simply wasted away for no benefit.This 'organic' attachment to HG was a disaster!.

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David Lehmann
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#14

Post by David Lehmann » 12 Dec 2002, 11:49

yes exactly, that's why HG had no tiger after that (except in 1945 in the urge) ... and in Italy they had only PzIII, PzIV and StuGIII and then they went on the eastern front.
There 2 divisions have been created HG 1 a PzD and HG 2 a PzGD. It becames the Fallschirmpanzerkorps HG (in october 1944 if I remember) with Flak, Pak and artillery support according to its new organisation. The PzD had 8 Pz Kompanie, among them 1 bataillon of PzIV and 1 bataillon of Panther but obviously no heavy tank. The PzGD had only 1 bataillon of StuG.

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Paul Timms
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MKIV Special

#15

Post by Paul Timms » 12 Dec 2002, 22:06

Mngray,

I always understood the MKIV F2 was the special in Allied parlance. This was easily identified due to the long 75mm.

Paul

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