Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Entschuldigung
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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#16

Post by Entschuldigung » 11 Jun 2020, 17:03

I have always been somewhat baffled that the Sturer Emil was not redesigned into a panzerjager with a fully enclosed casemate similar to the Jagpanther.

There would have been no need for the ridiculously heavy and far too in numerous Tiger series to exist if the Panther, Jagpanther, Sturer Emil and Dicker Max had been mass-produced - as long of course if production had been placed on a war footing in time for the Summer 1942 offensives.

Also if the parameters of keeping the weight under 50 tonnes and maintaining a Hp/Ton ratio of at least 14, then far more machines would have been produced earlier, and in greater numbers.

As much as I admire the Tiger series for their epic power, aesthetic quality and engineering innovativeness, it is hard to argue that had the entire Tiger series been shelved, the Panzer waffe may not have 'won the war' but certainly would have achieved parity if not superiority in that crucial period on the Eastern Front.

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#17

Post by Entschuldigung » 11 Jun 2020, 17:14

I think what is often overlooked in this popular discussion of tank on tank or AT on tank comparisons during the early stages of Barbarossa is how critical the role of the Luftwaffe was.

If the Panzerwaffe had not enjoyed air superiority it most likely would not have achieved the incredible gains it did.

That is not to downplay the tactical nous of the Panzertruppen at all, but when examining battles where the Germans begin to lose air superiority, is almost certainly concurrent with field reversals.


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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#18

Post by Yoozername » 14 Jun 2020, 21:11

This book preview has some information regarding this topic

https://books.google.com/books?id=exttD ... ion&f=true

hoot72
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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#19

Post by hoot72 » 25 Dec 2020, 14:46

Entschuldigung wrote:
17 Mar 2020, 09:55

Let me explain what I believe to be a serious error in cancelling these projects in favour of the Nashorn, Ferdinand and Jagdpanther.

The Ferdinand was almost a complete waste of resources, proving a disaster at Kursk, with the Jagdpanther (as usual) an excellent SPAAG that came too little too late.


I firmly believe these two vehicles, tweaked and refined into SPATG, would have enabled Germany to produce large quantities of them, and these vehicles would have been mobile enough to counter the ever-increasing defensive mindset post-Kursk.
Wow. What a statement(s).

1-The Ferdinand single handedly held the Northern Flank and had a kill ratio of 10-1 on average. It was then rushed to the Orels to hold the line there when the German's simply did not have the tanks it needed to hold the Russian advances. Yes, it was technically flawed and more time was needed to iron out the problems and to ensure spare parts were available but this was 1943. Not 2020.

For all its problems, the tank was not to blame as an offensive assault weapon during Kursk. It was better suited to long range tank killing rather than being used as an assault gun or a "battering ram" the way it was employed.

2-The "ever-increasing defensive mindset post-Kursk" was neccessary. You do realize how many men and tanks and assets were lost during the failed Kursk campaign right? What exactly did you expect the Whermacht to do in that instance other than hold the lines and sustain their defensive lines?

Attack?
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#20

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 26 Dec 2020, 01:41

hoot72 wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 14:46
1-The Ferdinand single handedly held the Northern Flank and had a kill ratio of 10-1 on average. It was then rushed to the Orels to hold the line there when the German's simply did not have the tanks it needed to hold the Russian advances. Yes, it was technically flawed and more time was needed to iron out the problems and to ensure spare parts were available but this was 1943. Not 2020.
The northern pincer was about 35 kilometers wide. Even without looking at the specific numbers, this alone makes it impossible for any single unit to have held the frontline single-handedly. As for the claimed number of tank kills, considering the over-claiming by German units in general, and seemingly in particular during the Kursk operations, the actual numbers were likely much smaller. Specifically, German units claimed 16 251 armored vehicles killed on the Eastern front from 5 July to 31 August, compared to 6064 armored vehicles actually knocked out in the Kursk area (including those later repaired and put back into action).

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#21

Post by Yoozername » 27 Dec 2020, 23:55

Sending the Elephants to Italy is another bad decision. They were ill suited for that terrain, and they didn't get anything close to kill ratios they may have achieved in the East.

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Re:

#22

Post by Mobius » 31 Dec 2020, 02:54

Brettina wrote:
26 May 2007, 06:15
Panzer Tracks No.7-3 has the following figures for the 105mm and 128mm guns.
10cm K. 12.8cm K.40
range:
100m 173mm 200mm
500m 155mm 175mm
1000m 138mm 150mm
1500m 124mm 132mm
2000m 111mm 130mm
Vo 822m/s 880m/s
at 30 degrees
There might be a typo there at 2000m. The Encyclopedia has it at 120 mm. A drop off of 18mm from 1000m to 1500m but only 2mm for the next 500m seems a bit much.

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#23

Post by Thoddy » 31 Dec 2020, 17:52

Its my opinion that all available 7,5 cm and 8,8 cm weapons could not took full advantage of the available shells especially Pzgr 39/42.

So from a practical view the 12,8 cm was not really necessary, except to propel sub-caliber 7,5 cm/8,8 cm shells to about 1250 m/s.
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#24

Post by Yoozername » 01 Jan 2021, 10:29

Thoddy wrote:
31 Dec 2020, 17:52
Its my opinion that all available 7,5 cm and 8,8 cm weapons could not took full advantage of the available shells especially Pzgr 39/42.

So from a practical view the 12,8 cm was not really necessary, except to propel sub-caliber 7,5 cm/8,8 cm shells to about 1250 m/s.
What time frame are you talking about?

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#25

Post by Thoddy » 02 Jan 2021, 12:58

1943 ff
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#26

Post by hoot72 » 02 Jan 2021, 16:31

Yoozername wrote:
27 Dec 2020, 23:55
Sending the Elephants to Italy is another bad decision. They were ill suited for that terrain, and they didn't get anything close to kill ratios they may have achieved in the East.
Agree. But I think given the German's were in panic mode at the time, with the heavy losses on the Eastern Front and the fact they were getting pushed back and then the danger of the impending invasion on the coast of Western Europe, they had no choice but to throw anything they could get their hands on and to send them down to Italy to try to stem the invasion...but yes, def not suited for the terrain and never achieved the "success" they did in the East.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

hoot72
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Re: Ferdinand 88mm vs Sturer Emil 128 mm

#27

Post by hoot72 » 02 Jan 2021, 16:33

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
26 Dec 2020, 01:41
hoot72 wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 14:46
1-The Ferdinand single handedly held the Northern Flank and had a kill ratio of 10-1 on average. It was then rushed to the Orels to hold the line there when the German's simply did not have the tanks it needed to hold the Russian advances. Yes, it was technically flawed and more time was needed to iron out the problems and to ensure spare parts were available but this was 1943. Not 2020.
The northern pincer was about 35 kilometers wide. Even without looking at the specific numbers, this alone makes it impossible for any single unit to have held the frontline single-handedly. As for the claimed number of tank kills, considering the over-claiming by German units in general, and seemingly in particular during the Kursk operations, the actual numbers were likely much smaller. Specifically, German units claimed 16 251 armored vehicles killed on the Eastern front from 5 July to 31 August, compared to 6064 armored vehicles actually knocked out in the Kursk area (including those later repaired and put back into action).
1-Agree, it was difficult for anyone to hold the 35km northern front
2-Even a 5-1 or 6-1 kill ratio was not a bad return given the fact the Ferdinands were not designed as "battering rams" or made to lead assaults. That and the fact the Russian's were waiting for them and had thrown everything but the kitchen sink to hold the lines including several defensive lines and heavy minefields and mass artillery support didn't help matters.
3-Both sides heavily over claimed kills and destroyed assets of the enemy but yes, you are right
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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