What is the hull number of the Aberdeen Tiger I?

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spannermann
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tiger numbers

Post by spannermann » 20 Sep 2007 17:43

Hi Rob and Slade,

Thank you both for your comeback, much appreciated,
On Vimoutier Tiger the empty turret serial number is stamped on the outer surface of the turret roof, approx on the centre of the turret diameter, for this paticular panzer it will have a code that looks like "cmp", but this is a mis-stamp, its meant to be "amp", "cmp" stands for a cardboard and biscuit tin manufacturing conglommerate in the east of Germany, whereas "amp" is for Dortmund-Hoerder Hüttenveren A.-G of Dortmund, Ruhr, a seriously heavy industral company, which was steel works both rolling and casting steel and a heavy plate fabricator, who had a long history of making tank hulls, mantlets, breech blocks and turrets for Panthers, Pz III's etc.,etc.,

I also have your number for the Kublinka Tiger but have no idea from which part of the tank it is from, so do not know for sure it if is the chassis number.

One problem looking for chassis numbers, is that they are always on the inside of the panzer and obviously access is usually difficult or impossible, Like the Vimoutiers Tiger with its welded-up hatches, the chassis number is of course still in there, its just getting permission to enter and the appropriate heavy tools to do it .....!!!!.

cheers spannermann

mailalan
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Post by mailalan » 21 Sep 2007 01:35

So these are the hull numbers I have for the surviving Tiger I's:

Bovington: 250112
Aberdeen: 250031
Saumur: 251114
Vimoutiers: 251113
Kubinka: 250427
Lenino-Snegiri: 251227

Do these look right to everyone?

- Alan

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Rob Veenendaal
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Post by Rob Veenendaal » 21 Sep 2007 05:58

Thanks again Spannermann!
In about a month I hope to be able to present some clear photos here.
I did read somewhere that there are plans for Vimoutiers restauration - No idea when this is to happen - Sure hope it's there when I want to visit it.
Those surviving Tigers have a nasty habit of being moved around without notification to all of us ;-)

Alan: Following the above:
Saumur = 251114 confirmed
Lenino, Snegiri, Saratov = 251227 confirmed (How do we have to name this vehicle at the moment?)
Vimoutiers = Very likely not 251113
Bovington: 250112 likely, not confirmed here
Aberdeen: 250031, could also be 250022 need confirmation
Kubinka: 250427, not confirmed here

Regards,

Rob

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mikerock
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Post by mikerock » 21 Sep 2007 07:32

Aberdeen has a Tiger? I was there last summer and the only tiger I saw was a Jagdtiger. I thought thier Tiger went to the Patton museum a long time ago.

spannermann
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tiger numbers

Post by spannermann » 21 Sep 2007 08:21

Hi Rob,

Agree entirely with your list of Tiger chassis numbers and whether proven or not, I took a photo of the Bovington Tiger number when the turret was off, but cannot find it, however, on the same steel T stanchion as the other Saumur and Snegiri/Lenino vehicles it said;- "250112 dkr 43 and a waffenampt".

Enjoy your visit to Vimoutiers, you will find numbers everywhere, look at the top surfaces of the barrel and recoil tube for instance its like somebody has stamped a whole book full of numbers and letters there, but in amongst it you will recognise some of the ordnance codes that have been mentioned earlier in this thread.

Other numbers that will be found have something to do with the armour plate quality and its "proofing", but have no clear answer for this yet.

For example stamped across the rear hull, top left corner of the APG Tiger 1, I saw 47E0734AV10, but for instance could not see a similar number on the Bovington Tiger. I have no idea what it means.

A lot of this numbering is for accountability, trackability, quality and payment reasons, we are after all dealing with high quality performance machinery and parts and also somebody has to get paid for these items. Even in the Third Reich there is an "industrial enconomy" that has to function, orders to be raised, items made, delivery documents, invoices sent and payments made.

This is why such an item, for example, like the empty turret welded fabrication will have a part number 25xxxx, and all turrets are made to this part number (plus modifications over time), but it is such an important item for quality and performance and traceability that its needs to be capable of being individually identified, hence the stamped serial numbers which of course will run from the first turret at 250001 to 251353 plus, The Vimoutier Tiger happens to be serial number 251113 of this sequence.

So also will the Wegmann complete turret have a part number 25xxxx and all turrets completed to this part number (plus modifications over time), but again the serial numbers will be 250001 to 251353 plus, and also the same for the hull and the complete vehicle.

Of course none of the above is just for the Tiger everying that is manufactured follows a similar process, those of us interested in small arms for instance, will understand this process description very well.

rgds spannermann

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Rikard Hufschmied
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Post by Rikard Hufschmied » 21 Sep 2007 09:05

mikerock wrote:Aberdeen has a Tiger? I was there last summer and the only tiger I saw was a Jagdtiger. I thought thier Tiger went to the Patton museum a long time ago.
The Aberdeen Tiger I was on loan to Germany for a long time, the plan was to have it restored by the Panzermuseum Munster but that deal fell through for reasons unknown. It's now in the care of the Wheatcroft Collection in the U.K but is scheduled to return to Aberdeen ASAP. The Aberdeen Tiger II was indeed transfered to the Patton Museum.

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Rob Veenendaal
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Post by Rob Veenendaal » 21 Sep 2007 11:34

Hi Spannermann,

You naming the number and place details for Bovington Tiger is proof enough for me!
I recall seeing a number like you mentioned also on the edge of either Munster Sturmtiger or the Saumur Tiger. Somehowe it didn't show on the photos. For numbers difficult to read, it's probably best to hold a thin paper on it and go over it with charcoal, then holding that paper with the result next to the original for photo. Fortunately the cameras have improved the past few years!
IMHO it is best to focus on the main numbers of hull and turret as they give us a clue when the part was manufactured.

Large numbers like this one on the Munster Sturmtiger are also of direct interest for my 1:6 model to be.
Off course, my friend doing the 1:1 scale turret in NZ needs every tiny detail.

http://www.panzerbasics.com/photo/munster.jpg

Regards,

Rob

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mikerock
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Post by mikerock » 22 Sep 2007 07:51

Rikard Hufschmied wrote:
mikerock wrote:Aberdeen has a Tiger? I was there last summer and the only tiger I saw was a Jagdtiger. I thought thier Tiger went to the Patton museum a long time ago.
The Aberdeen Tiger I was on loan to Germany for a long time, the plan was to have it restored by the Panzermuseum Munster but that deal fell through for reasons unknown. It's now in the care of the Wheatcroft Collection in the U.K but is scheduled to return to Aberdeen ASAP. The Aberdeen Tiger II was indeed transfered to the Patton Museum.
Ahh thanks for the clarification. I'll be back on the east coast next summer... maybe a chance to see it will arise!

spannermann
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Tiger I Chassis numbers

Post by spannermann » 06 Oct 2007 15:49

Hi Rob and others,

An important point, never rely on your memory, the Bovington Tiger is chassis number 250122, dkr, 43,waffenamp, not what I said previously.
I still cannot find my own photo of the chassis number from the Tigers restoration but attached is a photo from a book called "Tiger Tanks by Michael Green", where there is a photo of the chassis number on its internal "T" stanchion, as it is still surrounded by 88mm ammunition, it surely must be from WWII.

cheers Spannermann

mailalan
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Post by mailalan » 06 Oct 2007 17:24

Well now I'm confused as the Bovington's tank museums own site says it is 250112 on this page:
http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal.htm

Do you think you can find your picture?

- Alan

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Post by Gothard » 06 Oct 2007 19:30

???? Did they bring the Tiger Back ? Last time I was at Aberdeen The Tiger has been sent to Munich - far as I know it's still there and I doubt its coming back.

spannermann
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Tiger I Chassis numbers

Post by spannermann » 06 Oct 2007 20:11

Hi Alan,

Sorry for the confusion, but 250122 does seem to be what the photo I mentioned shows, I cannot post it as when I try "the system" rejects it as being BMP, whatever that means. As it is a WWII photo it is of course possible that its another Tiger altogether, for interest the Michael Green book does credit it as a "British Army Tank Museum" photo which I presume is Bovington.

The best thing is to momentarily forget my photo, but I am hoping that as the Bovington Tiger has been so available and open to the public since the start of its restoration that someone out there must have a photo of the inner "T" stanchion with the numbers on it, surely !!. The same I hope can also be expected for the ex-Aberdeen,ex-Germany but now at the Wheatcroft collection Tiger, so many people have been around it in recent years taht there must be photos of the numbers that interest us !!

hang on in there Alan, the answer will appear :-) ,

regards leonard paul

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I Chassis numbers

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Oct 2007 00:27

spannermann wrote: Sorry for the confusion, but 250122 does seem to be what the photo I mentioned shows, I cannot post it as when I try "the system" rejects it as being BMP, whatever that means. As it is a WWII photo it is of course possible that its another Tiger altogether, for interest the Michael Green book does credit it as a "British Army Tank Museum" photo which I presume is Bovington.
The same photo is in the Chertsey report on this Tunisian Tiger and thus confirms it is the same tank. As Bovington has copies of (nearly)all Tiger photos from WW2 the all end up with a 'Bovington/TM' tag

If you save your photos as JPEG (jpg) they will load.

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Rob Veenendaal
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Scheme

Post by Rob Veenendaal » 15 Oct 2007 17:17

Returned from France trip.
The Vimoutiers bare turret number:
http://www.panzerbasics.com/photo/vimoutiers-number.jpg
Could not find this number on Saumur turret - Might be in a different place or size?

Searched for the bare hull numbers on Vimoutiers and Saumur Tigers, but could not find them.

Here all numbers as I know them now in a scheme:
http://www.panzerbasics.com/photo/serial-numbers.pdf

It would be nice if we could find a few more mantlet casting numbers!

Best Regards,

Rob

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