Tigers at Prokhorovka

[Loner]

It is always the same thing, too many tigers, too many ferdinands, too many tanks and too many germans and they are always defeated by the brave and selfless private Potempkin

F/PAUL have you ever read books of german generals? There everything hordes of russian comunists pagans barbarians meanly kills truly brave and heroic german soldiers. Its very bad, its not fair. In reality german soldiers must kills soviet people - so that they really think.
This phrases are evryting in their books.
Does germans don't says about thousand russian barbarians killed in immediate combat, hundreds and hundreds of destroyed tanks, guns and airplanes? And about that, how small their looses and casualties? And how brave gefrieter Hans kills thousand of soviet pagans? To many T-34, to many politruk's, to many guns, to many territory, to many mud on the roads, to many dust in the air, to many partisans, to many, to many, to many... Im tired, its very boring.
Does germans don't think and don't examine about war with Russia. And about all of the difficulties with this?
They are themselves guilty.
And don't tell that enemy are gulty that we are loose the war.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

B) Verification: Calling german kill claims in excess of reality means a reliance on russian sources to determine this. If the soviet sources claim 5 losses against 25 german kill claims, the german claim is flawed. This works as long as the russian sources are accurate. Given that they were compiled under the Stalinist regime (which had years after WWII to alter them) I find it difficult to put a lot of faith in them.

There is no reason to suspect that the Russian casualty reports are not accurate. It wouldn't be possible to lower the number of own casualties (vehicular or otherwise) without leaving a discreprency somewhere. The work required to alter the records of the number of vehicles manufactured, in order to make up for a lower number of casualties, would be so enormeous, that it for all practical purposes is impossible.

The only reliable source for a country's casualties during war, whether in numbers or by casualty type, is that country's own casualty reports. All countries over-claimed enemy casualties. Thus, to get a realistic picture of the outcome of a battle, one has to look at both sides' casualty reports. (When it comes to who killed what, usually mainly relevant to armour, air and naval combat, it becomes a puzzle with half the pieces missing.)

[Makarov]

Perhaps not the right topic but I wonder if anyone can pinpoint out exactly where the monuments/memorials of the first defense line 5 km north of Yakolevo can be found? I will be visiting Prokhorovka in mid June and would very much like to visit these defense line memorials. I guess they are somewhere between Yakolevo and Prokhorovka.

They are shown in this link. https://www.flickr.com/photos/13150208@ ... 463214813/

Unfortunate the photos couldn't be copied (or at least I couldn't).

[Mobius]

You can find it with Google Earth
51°01'15"N 36°40'28"E Prokhorovka battlefield.
Check both sides the RR tracks down to 50°58' 36°34'. It is where Leibstandarte fought from 7/9/1943 to 7/12/1943.

In fact they have a street view of an area only about 750m from Oktiabr'skii State Farm, the high water line, of the German advance.
The Memorial is along the road opposite Oktiabr'skii.

BTW, Christian, the Russians may not have falsified their tank losses but they did slow walk them. It took 3 days before the totals were reported. So only total write-off losses show up.

[Makarov]

Aha, it's located at the memorial ground.
Thank's Mobius

[phillip burke]

Hello all,from what i can gleam from Blood Steel and Myth by George Nipe , there were only four tigers present during what is considered ''The Battle of Prokhorovka'',that is the attack of 5th Guards Army on 12th July.The Tigers were under the command of Michael Wittman. I believe they guarded the open left flank of the hill 252.2 position occupied by Peipers battalion and Ribbentropes 7th panzer company.

[Mobius]

That's the number of Tigers I think were there as well, though I don't know their position. I also, don't know the exact position of the anti-tank ditch between Oktiabr'skii State Farm and Komsomolets State Farm. The Russians reached the ditch and some tanks got to the other side on the 12th. Maybe Makarov can get some photos of it.
I found an earlier thread about this:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 7&t=220735

[phillip burke]

Hello Mobius,the anti tank ditch was in front of and defending the hill 252.2 position. The ditch goes all the way to a railway ditch which,looking at the map, is to the right of hill 252.2. The state farm is on the other side of railway ditch and is in Das Reich s area. Komssomolets is a good five kilometers behind and slightly to the right of the hill 252.2 positions . If you can afford it buy a copy of Blood Steel and Myth, if you cant go to your local library and they can order it in, ISBN 978-0-9748389-4-6, just give number and title,you will have to pay about 3 quid to cover cost of getting book from other library if they dont have it.

[Mobius]

I looked a little deeper at my Kursk, The Battle of Prokhorovka, book and located a map and a areo photo of the area. You can barely make out the tank ditch in the photo. BTW, it is a railroad embankment not ditch. The text in the book says there was a bridge made over the ditch that went up to the embankment.

Actually, you can see the map is a little off. The tank ditch does not go to the bottom of the ravine and runs a little higher up the slope.

[phillip burke]

Hello again, the four tigers under Wittmann fought the 181st Tank Brigade ,with the 170th Tank Brigade, just west of Oktjabriskiij. When the two tank brigades linked up, after the 181st had been forced out of Wassilijewka by Totenkopf artillery and nebelwerfers they threatened the supply lines and artillery positions. Wittmannns four tigers destroyed the 170th and 181st who suffered over 50% casulties and even suffered the loss of the commander in an intense 3 hour battle.The commander was General Tarasov who may have been killed by Peipers adjutant,SS-Untersturmfuhrer Werner Wolff.Later in the day both brigades launched another attack which was beaten back by artillery and the recon battalion suffering more casualties.So with an educated guess these four tigers destroyed ,damaged over 60 T-34s in a battle lasting three hours.I believe these numbers were verified later by officers walking round counting tanks ,also marking with chalk so as to cut down on double counts.

[Mobius]

Well, the Russians reported that their first echelon tank brigades were under fire at Wassilijewka from 13 Tigers from the west (Totenkopf) and from Tigers (probably Wittmann) and anti-tank guns from the ravines to the south. So it just wasn't 4 Tigers.
The German officers chalked the tanks west of the railroad embankment, including the tanks east of Oktabriskii that were destroyed by Von Ribbentrop's 5, 6 and 7th company of medium tanks and infantry.

[phillip burke]

Hello again, just had a look to find out where Totenkopfs panzergruppe and tigers were and its seems they were involved in there own battle trying to cross the Psel, to quote from Blood Steel and Myth '' Of interest is the statement that Toenkopf tigers blocked the advance of the 170th and 181st TankBrigades north of Oktjabriskij.The tigers which were encountered by the two Russian tank brigades were the four remaining tigers of Leibstandartes 13/kompanie. Totenkopfs tigers are assumed to have been in the bridgehead with the rest of the panzer regiment''. Hope this helps clarify .

[phillip burke]

From Tigers in Combat ,section on 9./SS-Panzer-Regiment 3. '' 12 July 1943-Attack on a group of barracks west of Klutschi/ After stopping an enemy counterattack, the Psel river is crossed.The advance is continued via hill 226.2 to the northeast into the area two kilometers northwest of Poleshajew. During the evening,the advance continues to the road Beregowoje-Kartaschewka ( furthest advance to the north during Citadel) SS-Untersturmfuhrer Kohler is killed in action;SS-Untersturmfuhrer Schussler assumes acting command''.

[Mobius]

Hello again, just had a look to find out where Totenkopfs panzergruppe and tigers were and its seems they were involved in there own battle trying to cross the Psel, to quote from Blood Steel and Myth '' Of interest is the statement that Toenkopf tigers blocked the advance of the 170th and 181st TankBrigades north of Oktjabriskij.The tigers which were encountered by the two Russian tank brigades were the four remaining tigers of Leibstandartes 13/kompanie. Totenkopfs tigers are assumed to have been in the bridgehead with the rest of the panzer regiment''. Hope this helps clarify .

Sorry, that is incorrect.
The XVII Tank Corps leading 170th and 181st Tank brigades in attack moved to the southwest along the Psel river.
The 170th was to go directly at Oktiabr'skii State Farm on the left flank. Effectively attacking up hill on the slope of hill 252.2.
The 181st was on the right and went closer to the river. This allowed the 181st to be fired on by Totenkopf's Tigers on the other side the Psel.

The Russians reported that they had taken heavy fire from Tigers and anti-tank guns from a ravine two kilomenters south of Mikhailovka.
These Tigers (Whittmann) would be in the ravine in the lower map below the words 'tank ditch'. They would not be out in the open to the west of Oktiabr'skii State Farm. Any tanks of the 181st approaching the ravine would have to run a gauntlet of flanking fire from Totenkopf.

[Makarov]

That's the number of Tigers I think were there as well, though I don't know their position. I also, don't know the exact position of the anti-tank ditch between Oktiabr'skii State Farm and Komsomolets State Farm. The Russians reached the ditch and some tanks got to the other side on the 12th. Maybe Makarov can get some photos of it.

Not exactly sure what you want me to take Pictures of. Positions of Ditches?

Although I have nothing to add to the recent discussions they are very interesting to follow and it will be a great asset for my upcoming trip to Prokhorovka.

Please continue.