Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

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odessa1944
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#31

Post by odessa1944 » 21 Nov 2009, 00:50

hi there,

an acquaintance of mine has an original wartime kubelwagen,schwimmwagen and kettenkraftrad.(he is a militariadealer in holland).
after hearing the claim myself about the kubelwagen being better in terrain, I have asked him this question .
he stated that while driving his kubel and schwimmer, he regularly passes jeeps that gotten stuck in the mud (he drives with his vehicles during meetings with other WWII vehicle owners) the kubel according to him faired better in terrain then the jeep, his schwimmwagen outclassed everything.
in the book "wehrmachtfahrzeuge im farbe" by jan suermondt, a book about restored german vehicles,on page 28, the writer claims that in north-africa the kubel did better in desert sand then the jeep. he also states that because of his low weight, the kubel drove through the russian mud, where all other wheeled vehicles remained stuck.apparently the flat bottom of the kubelwagen was also a decisive factor of not getting stuck.

as an current civilian truck and APC driver for the dutch army (and former military dutch army truck driver) I couldn`t
believe this claim myself. but after reading several books and talking to the militariadealer guy ,I am now convinced.
colleaques of mine also wouldn`t believe that a four wheel drive vehicle like the jeep could be inferior to the kubelwagen, but I have shown them several books stating this claim.
in steel master 34( a military modelling magazine) there is a special about the schwimmwagen in original and model. where on page 27 is stated "out of the supposed emergency solution came two of the best all-terrain vehicles of all time: the VW-kubelwagen and the VW-schwimmwagen"
after reading this topic, I only read about people who have a jeep, and not someone who has both tested both, like my acquaintance.
to end my part of this discussion, as the jeep is four-wheel drive ,it is better to compare the jeep with the schwimmwagen(which is also four-wheel drive). as for terrain capability , the jeep is definitely no match for a schwimmwagen.

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von thoma
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#32

Post by von thoma » 24 May 2019, 23:26

Why did Jeep Willys used an old leaf spring suspension ? Could not they have used a more modern suspension ?
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Nautilus
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#33

Post by Nautilus » 25 May 2019, 01:47

odessa1944 wrote:
21 Nov 2009, 00:50
he stated that while driving his kubel and schwimmer, he regularly passes jeeps that gotten stuck in the mud (he drives with his vehicles during meetings with other WWII vehicle owners) the kubel according to him faired better in terrain then the jeep, his schwimmwagen outclassed everything.
in the book "wehrmachtfahrzeuge im farbe" by jan suermondt, a book about restored german vehicles,on page 28, the writer claims that in north-africa the kubel did better in desert sand then the jeep. he also states that because of his low weight, the kubel drove through the russian mud, where all other wheeled vehicles remained stuck.apparently the flat bottom of the kubelwagen was also a decisive factor of not getting stuck.
Pre-war 4x4 drive systems were definitely not similar to a modern 4x4 system. Actually, they were altogether abandoned in the First World before the 1970s.

Problem: to get 4x4 drive in a car designed with WWII technology in mind, there are 2 open differentials front and rear, with a non-differential, hand-engaged transfer case between them, and universal joints at the wheels. Not constant-velocity joints like in a FWD car. This construction adds a lot of weight to the basic design, and hardens the steering until you need bodybuilder arms to steer at anything resembling highway speed.

Some authorities choose to make the car itself as small and lightweight as possible (Typ 87 Kommandeurwagen, Type 95 Kurogane), but this may not be possible all the time. Others judged the speeds on earth, mud or sand terrain at the frontline should never approach highway speeds anyway and used the basic, simplest design, which is easily driven below 40 km/h.

Mercedes-Benz G5 / BMW-325 / Stoewer R180, while superb on paper and very good in civilian life, were useless in the hard conditions at the front, due to weight. 3 times the weight of a VW, or almost 2 times the weight of a Jeep - folly.

A number of manufacturers and military authorities abandoned the idea of powering the front axle anyway and invested in complex suspension systems to keep the best possible traction on rough ground with rear wheel drive only - as Krupp did with small trucks and Scammell with heavy trucks.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#34

Post by Sheldrake » 25 May 2019, 13:15

odessa1944 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2009, 23:50
he stated that while driving his kubel and schwimmer, he regularly passes jeeps that gotten stuck in the mud (he drives with his vehicles during meetings with other WWII vehicle owners)
Not sure that this proves anything in itself. Driver skill varies a great deal.

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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#35

Post by Yoozername » 25 May 2019, 22:55


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Timber
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#36

Post by Timber » 06 Feb 2021, 22:29

Apologies for the necro, but being bored I felt like I'd share my opinion on the matter:

For offroading & negotiating difficult terrain and obstacles I'd choose the Kubelwagen for the following reasons:
1) Lockable differential (this really is pretty key to good offroad performance, 4WD or not, as without it you're sending most of the power to which'ever wheel has less grip, making it spin in vain and you will get stuck where a 2WD with a lockable diff won't)
2) Portal axle (more ground clearance & torque at the wheels all in one, one of the features that made the Unimog so famous)
3) Flat bottom (a very beneficial feature in serious mud, as mentioned acts like a sled in deep mud, preventing the vehicle from sinking deeper and allowing the wheels to basically paddle the vehicle fowards - one of the key factors which makes the Russian 8x8 BTR series so proficient in muddy terrain)
4) Lower CoG (of often overlooked importance in very uneven terrain)

I'd only ever choose the Jeep if my task was to get quickly from A to B in a country with a good infrastructure, or for towing stuff like for example a small AT gun or trailer across paved or hard gravel roads, and that for the single single reason that it has a more powerful engine (60 vs 25 hp), and thus considerably faster acceleration & speed on roads.

Hence I don't blame the GI's who left their Jeeps unused as soon as they captured a Kubel, the latter is just allround better for wartime conditions.

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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#37

Post by Yoozername » 06 Feb 2021, 23:26

I believe the Germans sent back most motorcycles and preferred the Kubelwagon in the Afrika Corp. They used special 'fat' tires if I recall correctly.

If you ever get to Tampa, Florida, make sure you visit the Tampa Bay automovbile museum. They have a really nice Kubelwagon there.

https://www.tbauto.org/project/kubelwag ... 2-germany/

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Timber
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#38

Post by Timber » 13 Feb 2021, 00:35

Yoozername wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 23:26
I believe the Germans sent back most motorcycles and preferred the Kubelwagon in the Afrika Corp. They used special 'fat' tires if I recall correctly.

If you ever get to Tampa, Florida, make sure you visit the Tampa Bay automovbile museum. They have a really nice Kubelwagon there.

https://www.tbauto.org/project/kubelwag ... 2-germany/
Indeed, but the Kubelwagen did have its limitations and there were certainly more capable offroad cars available, the Willy's Jeep just wasn't one of them.

In africa the Germans really liked their 4x4 Type 87 "Kommandeurwagen", they were also fitted with the wider sand tires you speak of, called "Kronprinz" tires.

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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#39

Post by Yoozername » 13 Feb 2021, 05:15

My thought is that the Kubel is a 'dune buggy' before its time. Get stuck? A guy or two can jump out and push you out.

I believe Carius mentions in Tigers In The Mud that they had a small halftrack, but the Kubel was preferred for most missions. Basically, the halftrack needed as much maintenance as most tanks.

It sort of filled a good gap. That is my opinion. Much like the Bren Carrier types, they were unique...and also good.

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Timber
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Re: Kübelwagen vs Jeep offroad mobility

#40

Post by Timber » 14 Feb 2021, 05:20

A good description/comparison and I agree. And yeah, the Bren Carriers are some often forgotten but great pieces of kit from that war, the Germans liked to "borrow" those a lot.

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