Sdkfz 251/17

[alchemy]

Hallo,
I'm trying (with not too much success) to get information about this vehicle: how many were manufactured and which units received them. What I have found is related to 251/17 "Luftwaffe" that have the 20 mm Flak 38 and removable panes at boths sides, as far as I undestood it was supplied to PzD Herman Göering, also I've read in the revision of one scale model that 12SS PzD had also 251/17 but not he "Luftwaffe", and there is a picture of a Grossdeutschland 251/17...

Not too much.

Thank you (in advance).
Javier

[Martin Block]

According to the research of T. Jentz the HG vehicles you are refering to actually were no Sd.Kfz. 251/17 but simply "2 cm Flak 38 auf SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251)". They were especially created for the Luftwaffe by mounting a 2 cm Flak 38 in a modified Sd.Kfz. 251.
It is unknown how many exactly were build but it can't have been many since the only unit known to have received them was the 18. Batterie Flak-Rgt. HG. None of the vehicles seems to have lasted longer than Apr/May 1943.

I do not know when the production of the real Sd.Kfz. 251/17 started and I do have only official figures available for vehicles delivered from production lines to Heereswaffenamt/Jn 6 for issue to units from Oct 1944 until Feb 1945:
Oct 1944 = 0
Nov 1944 = 50
Dec 1944 = 17
Jan 1945 = 53
Feb 1945 = 37

A total of 200 Sd.Kfz. 251/17 (plus 13 in the process of delivery) was reported available with the following units on 30.12.1944:

3. Pz.Div
5. Pz.Div.
7. Pz.Div.
8. Pz.Div.
20. Pz.Div.
21. Pz.Div.
23. Pz.Div.
24. Pz.Div.
25. Pz.Div.
Fsch.Pz.Div. 1 HG
Fsch.Pz.Gren.Div. 2 HG
25. Pz.Gren.Div.
Führer-Begl.Brig.
Führer-Gren.Brig.
2. SS-Pz.Div.
12. SS-Pz.Div.

The 1. SS-Pz.Div. is no longer listed but other records do show they had received some in mid 1944.
Pz.Brig. 101 - 104 and 105 - 110 were authorized to have 16 repectively 2 each and from the few surviving records it appears as if they were actually delivered.
There may have been a few more Pz.Div. receiving them during the summer of 1944 but that would require going through a lot of status reports right now.

From the records it is not 100% sure that the Pz.Gren.Div. GD did actually receive any Sd.Kfz. 251/17. The well known photo of the SPW tactical number '3501' does show what appears to be a field conversion armed with a 20mm MG 151/20 gun mount salvaged from a wrecked German bomber.

Martin Block

[Sam Wren]

Javier,

Here are a few links that might be helpful:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... Sept-+1944

http://www.network54.com/Forum/571595/t ... ed+details

[TadPortly]

It is unknown how many exactly were build but it can't have been many since the only unit known to have received them was the 18. Batterie Flak-Rgt. HG. None of the vehicles seems to have lasted longer than Apr/May 1943.

This version of the 2 cm Flak 38 auf SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251) features in, I believe, Volume 2 of Panzerwrecks, with Wehrmacht plates. Another is shown on the Panzerwrecks website as being in Volume 6 partially underneath a wrecked Sdkfz 251/22

[Sam Wren]

I was under the impression that this vehicle was not considered a 251 variant but rather a variant of the SdKfz 11 (which was the "mother" of the 251) and was actually a 2.cm Flak 38 auf Selbstfahrlafette Zgkw.3t SdKfz 11. I don't have the relevant panzer tracts volume, but that is apparently what Jentz & Doyle call it.

I obtained all of my info on this vehicle from the following link and from Tech Intell:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... 121/251-17

sam

PS: i have pre-ordered the next Panzerwrecks.

[alchemy]

I was wondering if due to the strong relationship betwen 1SS LAH (and the italian vacations of this unit in 1944) and 12SS HJ, some 251/17 or equivalent fiel modifications or 2 cm italian weapons will end (like the leather clothing of the 12SS PzReg) in HJ units (like the picture that appear in Sam's post). In Hubert Meyers's book I was not able to find nothing except a picture of a 251/21 ath the end of the war.

In addition, in Nafziger's OOB book (I know it is not a good source), I've found that 1SS, 9SS, 10SS had 6 2 cm guns in armoured PzGr Btns but not in in 2SS and 12SS Although pictures evidences at least the field modiffications).

BTW, somebody knows if it is possible to order documentation to Germany's Friburg Budersarchive?. My German is very limited and I can not understand if it is possible or not.

[FKDeane]

Hi Sam,

The Panzer Tracts is No.12 Flak Selbstfahrlafetten and Flakpanzer and you are right it is a 2cm Flak 38 auf Selbstfahrlafette Zgkw.3t (Sd.Kfz.11) - nothing to do with the Sd.Kfz.251 other than the general appearance of the nose armour. Doyle and Jenz state that 604 were built and give the details of the contract issued to Auto Union

Fred

[Sam Wren]

Alchemy,

Saludos desde la ex-colonia española de Texas.

There are photos of both Sd.Kfz 251s and 250s of 12 SS that were field modified to carry 20mm Bredas and 25 mm Hotchkiss guns. Field modifications are tricky and do not always show up in the official records. There is photographic evidence (in one of the links above) that 2 SS had field modified at least one 251 with a 20 mm but apparently it is not listed as such in any of the documents submitted by 2 SS, or at least not in any that survived. On the other hand, 1 SS did report up to 20 251/17s in their reports but there is no other evidence that any "official" 251/17s ever made it to Normandy. Unfortunately, at this point in time, 251 production numbers were not recorded according to variant. They were reported by variant before, then for a time Wa J Rü stopped for a time (during the period when 251/17s commenced production) and then they started again in September. It seems most likely that production began in August, maybe late July, so the LAH 251/17s are a bit of a mystery still. 21st Pz also had at least one Sd.Kfz 250 of the Aufkl. Abt. field modified with a 20mm (I believe), so field modifications were not very rare, but an official schwebelafette 251/17 before August is quite unlikely, definitely not in Normandy, anyway.

sam

[alchemy]

Regarding Martin's point about the delivery to the Panzer Brigade 105, in Tim Hassler's book "Hold the Westwal..." what appear that was delivery to this unit are SdKfz 251/21.

[Cheap Jeep]

Were there ever any 251s or like vehicles (not the 7) which had full-height sides and a flakvierling?

Had the History Channel on while reading the paper this morning ('Battlefields: The Battle For Berlin') and in the narrative preamble to the Seelowe Heights assault, I looked up to see what looked like the angled sides of a 251 series half track go by the camera with a quad 2cm buried in the back.

Needless to say, I was rather shocked that they could manage to jam the ordnance piece in there without overweighting the vehicle and/or limiting the traverse and depression of the mount severely.

Like I say, I only saw it for a moment.


Thanks, Jeep

[Kelvin]

Alchemy,

Saludos desde la ex-colonia española de Texas.

There are photos of both Sd.Kfz 251s and 250s of 12 SS that were field modified to carry 20mm Bredas and 25 mm Hotchkiss guns. Field modifications are tricky and do not always show up in the official records. There is photographic evidence (in one of the links above) that 2 SS had field modified at least one 251 with a 20 mm but apparently it is not listed as such in any of the documents submitted by 2 SS, or at least not in any that survived. On the other hand, 1 SS did report up to 20 251/17s in their reports but there is no other evidence that any "official" 251/17s ever made it to Normandy. Unfortunately, at this point in time, 251 production numbers were not recorded according to variant. They were reported by variant before, then for a time Wa J Rü stopped for a time (during the period when 251/17s commenced production) and then they started again in September. It seems most likely that production began in August, maybe late July, so the LAH 251/17s are a bit of a mystery still. 21st Pz also had at least one Sd.Kfz 250 of the Aufkl. Abt. field modified with a 20mm (I believe), so field modifications were not very rare, but an official schwebelafette 251/17 before August is quite unlikely, definitely not in Normandy, anyway.

sam

Hi, Sam, 3./Pz.A.A.21 had six 2cm symbol, in another post, Piet mentions it is sdkfz.251/17, or just field conversion ? Thank

[Alanmccoubrey]

Were there ever any 251s or like vehicles (not the 7) which had full-height sides and a flakvierling?

Had the History Channel on while reading the paper this morning ('Battlefields: The Battle For Berlin') and in the narrative preamble to the Seelowe Heights assault, I looked up to see what looked like the angled sides of a 251 series half track go by the camera with a quad 2cm buried in the back.

Needless to say, I was rather shocked that they could manage to jam the ordnance piece in there without overweighting the vehicle and/or limiting the traverse and depression of the mount severely.

Like I say, I only saw it for a moment.


Thanks, Jeep

Watch it again, pause it and I'm sure you'll see that it is an SdKfz 251/21 Drilling so three barrels.

[Kelvin]

Alchemy,

Saludos desde la ex-colonia española de Texas.

There are photos of both Sd.Kfz 251s and 250s of 12 SS that were field modified to carry 20mm Bredas and 25 mm Hotchkiss guns. Field modifications are tricky and do not always show up in the official records. There is photographic evidence (in one of the links above) that 2 SS had field modified at least one 251 with a 20 mm but apparently it is not listed as such in any of the documents submitted by 2 SS, or at least not in any that survived. On the other hand, 1 SS did report up to 20 251/17s in their reports but there is no other evidence that any "official" 251/17s ever made it to Normandy. Unfortunately, at this point in time, 251 production numbers were not recorded according to variant. They were reported by variant before, then for a time Wa J Rü stopped for a time (during the period when 251/17s commenced production) and then they started again in September. It seems most likely that production began in August, maybe late July, so the LAH 251/17s are a bit of a mystery still. 21st Pz also had at least one Sd.Kfz 250 of the Aufkl. Abt. field modified with a 20mm (I believe), so field modifications were not very rare, but an official schwebelafette 251/17 before August is quite unlikely, definitely not in Normandy, anyway.

sam

Hi, Sam, 3./Pz.A.A.21 had six 2cm symbol, in another post, Piet mentions it is sdkfz.251/17, or just field conversion ? Thank

Hi, Sam, 3./Pz.A.A 21 of 21.Panzer division is on June 1 1944.

[Sam Wren]

I have not seen the file to which Piet refers in http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... +Normandy-, but my guess is that it either only contains the descriptions for which Piet supplied the most logical Sd.Kfz equivalent, or that the document does actually contain the intended/equivalent Sd.Kfz. numbers. If the latter is the case my belief is that the intended Sd.Kfz for some types was only available in the form of field modifications. To my knowledge there is no photographic evidence of the presence of factory-made Sd.Kfz. 251/17s in Normandy. There is photographic evidence that Sd.Kfz. 250/9s are found in 21.PD in both the official, factory-made forms and in at least one field-mod form in which the gun is attached to a post apparently fixed to the hood directly in front of the driver's visor

Pz.AA-21, Sd.Kfz. 250A Field mod2.jpg (42.61 KiB) Viewed 9011 times

Until I see photographic or unambiguous documentary evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe that all references to Sd.Kfz. 251/17s in Normandy are either field mods or authorized equipment that was never delivered.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Sam, is it sdkfz250/9 ? because 10 SS Frundsburg Panzer division 's 4./Pz.A.A 10 had three sd.kfz.250/9 as replacement for shortage of sdkfz250/10 as 10th SS had 19 those vehicles in inventory.