Goodwood tank casualties........

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 5137
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Oct 2015 03:34

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0--3oQ ... caCh0uygNM



I have not yet got the book but looking on Google preview shows that there was indeed double-counting going on. I think we can safely say the myth of '500 burning Shermans' on 18/07/44 is well and truly busted and the number of tanks destroyed was c 160. .

From the book preview:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.jpg
bbbbbbbbbbbbbb.jpg
ccccccccccccccc.jpg
ddddddddddddd.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Shermaninterest
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 18:23
Location: Germany

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Shermaninterest » 16 Nov 2015 16:33

I got the book, so if there are some questions iam happy to use the book. I noticed the author didn't include the British I Corps, i know technically they didn't partake in "Goodwood" but i would be interested in their losses. Losses of the Heavy tank battalions fighting units of the 33rd Armored Brigade are certainly included in the German tally. Somebody got informations for those units?

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 5137
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Nov 2015 20:21

33 AB made no count on the night of 18/7/44 and the count for 19th is obviously that for 1 Regiment only. For July 17 the numbers are 106/14/34 = 75mm 29/0/4 = 17 pdr & 26/1/3 = Stuart. Obviously a bad day for The Brigade!
By July 20 The Brigade is back up to 179 M4.

Shermaninterest
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 18:23
Location: Germany

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Shermaninterest » 16 Nov 2015 22:04

What happened on July 17?

edit: I guess i was mistaken, i initally thought the 33rd AB was on the eastern flank of the Goodwood operation because Wiki lists the unit in the order of batlle for the British I Corps. When british units did attack towards Troran on the 18th July.

Juha
Member
Posts: 177
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 10:38
Location: Finland

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Juha » 05 Aug 2016 14:34

Shermaninterest wrote:I got the book, so if there are some questions iam happy to use the book. ...
Hello Shermaninterest
I'd greatly appreciate if you would give info on how many British tanks were written off during the Oper. Goodwood according to Stephen Napier. Was his final result the 156 mentioned in Kenny's message? And on the German losses, has he forget the Becker's SP-guns in his calculations?

TIA
Juha

Shermaninterest
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 18:23
Location: Germany

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Shermaninterest » 05 Aug 2016 16:20

Juha wrote:
Shermaninterest wrote:I got the book, so if there are some questions iam happy to use the book. ...
Hello Shermaninterest
I'd greatly appreciate if you would give info on how many British tanks were written off during the Oper. Goodwood according to Stephen Napier. Was his final result the 156 mentioned in Kenny's message? And on the German losses, has he forget the Becker's SP-guns in his calculations?

TIA
Juha
Hi, Napier states that the losses are hard to estimate and reading the paragraph it seems he is not entirely sure about the numbers. He first quotes the MORU report and explains the shortcomings ( 493 tank casualties ). He quotes a revised report of the British cabinet for 156 write offs ( total loss ). He shows a table which gives 275 casualties including all type of casualties . Interesting here is that the table is put together with different reports about different units he doesn't say why he lends more credibility to this particular reports now. For the 7th Armoured and the 27th Brigade there seems to be no citation. The cabinet reports seems to be based on the same set off numbers. Confusing to me is that the number of write offs 156 matches the number of Sherman losses in his table not sure how likely such occurrence is or if the numbers got mixed up. Napier supports those numbers thus he thinks 275 casualties ( 156 write offs ) is the best number. For the 27th Brigade his table indicates 12 losses while the operational number of tanks seems to have dropped by at least 29 over the course of the 18th July. You might want to ask Kenny for more information he seems to be the most knowledgeable when it comes to British primary data.

For the German losses, he uses Zetterlings book and has the following.

21st Panzer: 28 Panzer IV
1st SS: 26 Panther 16 STUG III
503rd: 10 Tiger I & II
101st SS: 3 Tiger

Those are unserviceable vehicles so it's the difference between operational vehicles before and after the battle. Could include any type of casualty from minor damage to write off.

He does not mention the anti tank unit ( Becker ) of the 21st Panzer. The losses of this unit should have been considerable I doubt they were able to bring all of their vehicles out of the Cagny area. Again maybe Kenny knows more about this.

Juha
Member
Posts: 177
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 10:38
Location: Finland

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Juha » 05 Aug 2016 19:00

Hello Shermaninterest
Thanks a lot for the answer. It seems that Napier’s book doesn’t give definitely answer to my questions. It might well be that it is impossible to give a definite answer to the question of how many British tanks were total losses/written-offs. I’m looking a way to compare British and German losses as apples to apples i.e. total losses to total losses. When looking the tables in Kenny’s message above it seems to me (I'm not very familiar to the British repair org.) that the Guards’ Sherman losses incl. 15 definite writte-offs (those in the Zw row), 19 that might be somewhat similar to Germans "sent to the Reich for factory/Repair Depots level repairs", of which some were scrapped later (possible large % in the British system than in the German one). I cannot say how those in 2nd line workshops compared to the German in long-term and short-term repairs. Kenny might be able to enlighten me on this.

Thankfully
Juha

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 13426
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Aug 2016 12:44

The number of tanks scrapped by German homeland repair was actually quite small, though it should of course be remembered that tanks that were obviously unrepairable would have been scrapped immediately rather than wasting valuable factory trying to repair them: http://www.panzerworld.com/homeland-armor-maintenance

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 1883
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Sheldrake » 06 Aug 2016 13:44

Michael Kenny wrote:The 'Official' Goodwood report(CAB 44/249) has a small note in Appendix B that boldly states:

Tanks. Total Casualties = 493
Total Strength 0745 hours 18 July 44 = 1369
i.e 36% of initial strength.
Total Tank Losses 18/19 July 44 = 156, 11.4%

The generaly accepted figure is 400+ and you rarely get any mention of the battle without being told of the 'massive (even catastrophic) losses and the 'destruction' of a third of the UK's tank Force. In the latest book by Perry Moore (Operation Goodwood, Corridor of Death) you can read how 23rd Hussars lost 20 Shermans at 18:00 and a further 20 M4's at 18:30. "in total 40 tanks of the the 23rd Hussars had been destroyed". Strangely he then goes on to sum up 11th AD losses and notes 23rd Hussars lost...................26 tanks! Thus though he knows the actual losses (because he quotes the right total of 26) he can not resist inflating them.
Anyway we have 11tt AD's tank states for the night of 18/7/44 and they are:

Key:
fit/fit in under 24hours/fit over 24hours or written off.

M4 75mm 91/9/80
M4 17pdr 15/-/21
Crom 41/1/15
Stuart 12/1/14

Thus the days losses were 11 fit in under 24hrs and 140 over 24 hrs or written off. A total of 151.

We also have a Regimental Breakdown for losses on the 18th

Fife & Forfar = 43
3 RTR = 41
23 Hussars = 26
North Yeo = 16
Total = 126

Note that this is 25 less than the above.

Tank states for night of 19/7/44

M4 75mm 65/16/89
M4 17pdr 16/1/23
Crom 24/4/31
Stuart 26/2/14

Total lossesof 23 + 157 = 180. Logic tells us most of the previous days losses are still in the totals. Therefore a 54 tank increase. If the 'under 24 hour repair' totals are fixed then that would add a max of 11 to this 54

Regimental loss breakdown for the 19th

Fife & Forfar = 8
3 RTR = 16
23 Hussars = 4
North Yeo = 37
Total = 65
A difference of 11!




I have no figures for 7th and Guards AD's for the 18th but have for the 19th. Thus we have to reconstruct them.
11th AD figures (all types added together) for 19th are:

18th = 159/11/130
19th = 131/23/157
note that the 24 hrs+ total has risen. We can assume that the previous days total of 130 are in there and 27 more added.
So I am going to use the 19th totals to get some idea of 7th and Guards totals.

Guards:
19th = 266/16/21 (loss = 37)

7th:
19th = 223/19/11 (loss = 30)

Using the assumption the majority previous days losses are still being counted (as we did with 11th AD) then it would suggest quite low numbers for 7th and Guards Armoured on 18th/19th July.

Back to flights of fancy

For 11th AD we can get a total of circa 200 and say around 100 for 7th and Guards. This is far short of the 493 loss figure and I am wondering where the remaining 200 can be found.
2nd Canadian AB show a loss of 15 over18/19th
27th AB lose 26
148 RAC lose 10
79th AD was present with 22nd Dragoons, 1st Lothian and 141 RAC but I doubt they could make up the difference.
Can anyone help with the figures? I hate talking to myself.
Where in these figures are the tanks used by the brigade HQ BCs and FOOs? These won'[t be in the armoured Regiment totals, but the Gunnners lost a few tanks.

While tank spotters get stuck into discrepancies in different imperfectly recorded documents can someone help with some other figures.
Can anyone give me the numbers of German field guns employed in this battle, their organisation and their losses?

The key issue for the allies was not the tank losses, but the acute shortage of infantrymen. Painful though the losses of tanks might have been. The real pain for the allies was the heavy infantry casualties among the infantrymen of 1st British and 2nd Canadian Corps. 2nd Lincolns lost the best part of 200 casualties - 50% of their rifle companies to mortars and did not take a lead role in any operation until after the campaign.

The Napier book makes the observation that the Germans lost the equivalent of a Panzer Regiment. The Germans could not afford to replace losses, while two weeks later the same three British armoured Divisions attack at full strength in Op Bluecoat.

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 1693
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Aug 2016 17:12

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:The number of tanks scrapped by German homeland repair was actually quite small, though it should of course be remembered that tanks that were obviously unrepairable would have been scrapped immediately rather than wasting valuable factory trying to repair them: http://www.panzerworld.com/homeland-armor-maintenance
Brilliant Christian! Where did you find those? I dug through all the relevant rolls I could think of at NARA looking for just such information years ago without success. Thank you.

Rich Anderson
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 1693
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Aug 2016 17:30

Sheldrake wrote: Can anyone give me the numbers of German field guns employed in this battle, their organisation and their losses?
Hi Sheldrake,

Its difficult to assess losses in artillery pieces due to the limited extent of the PzGrpWest/5.PzArmee records. However, there were limited records kept for personnel losses in a few artillery units.

Werfer Brigade 7., supporting I. SS-Panzerkorps, reported losses of 58 KIA, 204 WIA, and 25 MIA for July.
Werfer Brigade 9., supporting LXXXVI Armeekorps, reported losses of 46, KIA, 153 WIA, and 163 MIA for July, with 47 reported lost 18-21 July.
ARKO 119., supporting ???, reported losses of 39 KIA and 96 WIA, but no MIA.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 13426
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Aug 2016 21:14

Richard Anderson wrote:Brilliant Christian! Where did you find those? I dug through all the relevant rolls I could think of at NARA looking for just such information years ago without success. Thank you.

Rich Anderson
They're hidden away on T78 R151. I sadly haven't found any other reports than the ones on my website.

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 1693
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Aug 2016 21:48

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:Brilliant Christian! Where did you find those? I dug through all the relevant rolls I could think of at NARA looking for just such information years ago without success. Thank you.

Rich Anderson
They're hidden away on T78 R151. I sadly haven't found any other reports than the ones on my website.
Yes, someplace among the thousands I have never looked at. Sigh.

Good job! :thumbsup:
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 13426
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Aug 2016 21:53

Thank you :)

So much interesting material to use out there. I would estimate that I have looked through 250 000 microfilm frames, and yet I still sometimes neglect to write down when I find something interesting 8O

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 5137
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Aug 2016 22:33

Repairing The Panzers by Lukas Friedli (page 241)has some more info.
Hpool Portrait892 b jpg.jpg

Hpool Portrait892 jpg.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”