Sd.Kfz.251/22 (7.5cm PaK 40) info???

[Kelvin]

HI, Yan and Bert, thank for all your information to help me.

[yantaylor]

You are welcome Kelvin.

Going back to Sd.Kfz. 250s and 251s, I am surprised that the German's never had a full list detailing the amount of variants produced as data for the different totals and some times actual date of production is very hard, if not impossible to find.
Give the German's their due, they usually kept very detailed data on the different marks of Panzer and even converted French stuff, but totals of the conversions produced on the own half-tracks are really woeful.

Yan.

[spannermann]

Hi,

I think the answer to the "unknown version totals" lies in the fact that not all 22 official versions of the 251 were completed when at their various Final Assembler manufacturing sites. (J Gollnow & Sohns, Hanomag AG, Eisenwerke Weserhutte, Wumag, Schichau AG, Evans & Pister).

Whilst it is obvious that some versions like the early 251/9 Kan 37 have to be completed at the Final Assembler, the later 251/9 Kan 51 could be adapted from regular 251's later in the supply chain or even at the field unit end user, not many I suspect, but because of the method of mounting the Kan 51, it could easily happen.

Same for the 251/22 7,5cm Pak, FA produced and there were in the field convesions, special conversion sets of the gun being produced and issued for that very purpose. Similar situation for the 251/21 Drilling,

Also the regular 251 could become one of many different versions well after leaving the FA site, possibly at the first HZa after the FA site, but there were often several depots handing these vehicles all the way to the end user unit at the front line, any of them could finalise a version as required.

Where were all the Werfer frames added to the basic 251 ? certainly not at the FA's in fact 5/SS Pz AA 11 is recorded as adding its own whilst in the field, where did they get that equipment from, probably J Gast AG. as kits.

Similar with the 251/2 8cm Mr, not necessarily installed at the FA,s if at all.

This post FA conversion work Is made relatively easy with the 251, due to it having inner body lining panels, that were customised to various versions, they could be added at any time to a generic 251 hull.

Consequently knowing just how many 251 of any version, except those that were complicated or specialised enough to have to be completed by the FA, is always goung to be problematical.

cheers leonard paul

[yantaylor]

Very good answer Leonard, thank you.
I wonder if the same could be said about the 251/17 as some of these had a lot of work done to them, like the addition of sides panels that could be dropped to allow for 360 degree traverse.

I have read that the 251/17 was supposed to be used as a platoon leader vehicle, in the same way as the 251/10, but this version didn't have the dropped side panels, so there must have been two versions of this vehicle, or maybe more.

Yan.

[SIS 5]

Hi Yan,

five pics to the different versions of Sd.Kfz. 251/17:
pic 1 and 2: the Luftwaffe developed this conversion of the Ausf. C as a 2cm Flak 38 carrier. The gun was enclosed in a fully armored superstructure with sides that could be lowered (on pic 1).
pic 3 and 4: here versions of the Heer (pic 4 a vehicle of the Panzergrenadierdivision - armored infantry division "Großdeutschland").
pic 5: the final version, which was accepted for production in 1944. The gun was mounted in a small armored turret and hat a free 360 traverse. Though only a few of these Sd.Kfz. 251/17 were issued to troops.
Source of the information and pic 1, 2 and 5: squadron/signal publications Armor Series No. 21 "SdKfz 251 in action" by Charles Kliment,
pic 3: Waffen-Arsenal Special Band 32 "Der mittlere Schützenpanzerwagen" by Walter Seifert,
pic 4: Waffen-Arsenal Band 64 "Schützenpanzerwagen 2. Band" by Horst Scheibert.

Regards

Bert

[yantaylor]

Thanks Bert, I noticed that the two versions used by the Heer are different models with the top one being an Ausf C and the one with the turret an Ausf D.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Thanks Bert, I noticed that the two versions used by the Heer are different models with the top one being an Ausf C and the one with the turret an Ausf D.

Yan, the only Ausf C in those photographs is the Luftwaffe type. If you mean the one with all the foliage on it then that too is the Luftwaffe version with the fold down sides. No one has said so but that type was used only by the HG Division and they were lost in Tunisia and in fact the third, camouflaged photo is in Tunisia, the crewman is wearing the Luftwaffe tropical side cap.

[yantaylor]

Sorry Alan, I didn't make myself clear, but you are right my friend.

I have seen that picture of the turreted 251/22 before, but it was a larger picture then the one posted. I am sure it was took during the battle of the bulge because it was in a book I had years ago about the Ardennes.

Has anyone got a copy of the full picture please?

Yan.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Yan, the proper name for the "turret" is SdKfz 251/17 Schwebelaffette, I'm sure that there is a thread on here all about it.

[yantaylor]

Thanks Alan, I will check it out.

Yan.

[verdenpark]

Hello,
I am making a model of an early 251/9, and need some info on the internal arrangements. Was there any support brackets under the gun? If so, was the front right seat removed to make way for them? Were the bench seats cut back? How was the ammo stored onboard? Did it have the scissor periscope fitted, and if so, where? Any photos or drawings of inside would be much appreciated.

Thankyou in advance,
A.

[SIS 5]

Hi Alan,

here three pics of this vehicle, which could be interesting for You:
pic 1: "SdKfz 251" by Janusz Ledwoch
pic 2: Waffen-Arsenal Band 64 "Schützenpanzerwagen" by Horst Scheibert
pic 3: Waffen-Arsenal Special Band 32 "Der mittlere Schützenpanzerwagen (Sd.Kfz. 251) by Walter Seifert).

Regards

Bert

[verdenpark]

Hello,
Thankyou for the photos Bert. Beautiful detail in them. Especially the first one.

Best regards,
A.