King Tiger front armour invincibility..

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 28 Oct 2014 18:24

An internal fire would very likely have weakened the armor further. Thank you for that additional information, Alejandro.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Alejandro_ » 29 Oct 2014 10:52

After one hit they aim at a fresh section of steel. If the hit takes place too close to a previous one it is considered unsatisfactory. In any case, hull and turret were penetrated in the front section with first hits. German documents stating front turret penetration can also be found. Soviets found armour quality lower than in earlier types and prone to spalling when hit.

I don't really understand the big deal with this "King Tiger front armour invincibility". I have never seen any IS-2 obr 1944 or Ferdinand with a front hull penetration*

* Only one vehicle that had front plate "ripped out" after being subjected to 152mm hits.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Kelller Osmik » 02 Oct 2022 09:46

Alejandro_ wrote:
29 Oct 2014 10:52
After one hit they aim at a fresh section of steel. If the hit takes place too close to a previous one it is considered unsatisfactory. In any case, hull and turret were penetrated in the front section with first hits. German documents stating front turret penetration can also be found. Soviets found armour quality lower than in earlier types and prone to spalling when hit.

I don't really understand the big deal with this "King Tiger front armour invincibility". I have never seen any IS-2 obr 1944 or Ferdinand with a front hull penetration*

* Only one vehicle that had front plate "ripped out" after being subjected to 152mm hits.
Image
Here is Is-2 mod44, front hull penetration. Also, I think you saw the destroyed Is-2 in front of the turret from a distance of 2600 meters from Nashorn. In the Is-2 mod44 turret on the left has the same weakly armored place, where it will also penetrate.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 02 Oct 2022 14:18

Kelller Osmik wrote:
02 Oct 2022 09:46
Image
Here is Is-2 mod44, front hull penetration. Also, I think you saw the destroyed Is-2 in front of the turret from a distance of 2600 meters from Nashorn. In the Is-2 mod44 turret on the left has the same weakly armored place, where it will also penetrate.
That particular picture isn't too shocking, the LFP of all IS2's was the same, that area is, what? 100-130mm of not very sloped armor? Even the Panzer 4 on a good day could punch through it, yet alone Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, etc.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Kelller Osmik » 02 Oct 2022 14:25

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
02 Oct 2022 14:18
Kelller Osmik wrote:
02 Oct 2022 09:46
Image
Here is Is-2 mod44, front hull penetration. Also, I think you saw the destroyed Is-2 in front of the turret from a distance of 2600 meters from Nashorn. In the Is-2 mod44 turret on the left has the same weakly armored place, where it will also penetrate.
That particular picture isn't too shocking, the LFP of all IS2's was the same, that area is, what? 100-130mm of not very sloped armor? Even the Panzer 4 on a good day could punch through it, yet alone Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, etc.
Yes, the photo isn't shocking. It’s just that a person wrote that he didn’t see, and I showed him.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Erik1 » 05 Oct 2022 17:21

https://pzkpfw3485.tistory.com/2245178

Iirc this Tiger 2 was knocked out through the lower frontal plate by an anti-tank gun at extremely close range. I remember the 503rd's book talked about the incident. Not sure if when people talk about the Tiger 2 hull's front armor invincibility whether they only mean the upper front plate though.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 06 Oct 2022 05:17

Erik1 wrote:
05 Oct 2022 17:21
https://pzkpfw3485.tistory.com/2245178

Iirc this Tiger 2 was knocked out through the lower frontal plate by an anti-tank gun at extremely close range. I remember the 503rd's book talked about the incident. Not sure if when people talk about the Tiger 2 hull's front armor invincibility whether they only mean the upper front plate though.
Only way to be sure is to see the actual penetration hole on the tank.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Alejandro_ » 25 Nov 2022 11:04

Kelller Osmik wrote:
02 Oct 2022 09:46
Here is Is-2 mod44, front hull penetration. Also, I think you saw the destroyed Is-2 in front of the turret from a distance of 2600 meters from Nashorn. In the Is-2 mod44 turret on the left has the same weakly armored place, where it will also penetrate.
Thank you, I had not seen this photo before. Any details on unit/circumstances?

Regarding Tiger 2, those claims are made for front upper hull. The lower part can be penetrated by a some guns. For the gun mantlet:

The experience shows that Russians build up strong anti-tank gun positions directly behind his forward elements was proved again. Up to now, happily, the employment of American 9.2cms and conical bore (7.5cm reduced to 5.7 cm) anti-tank guns has led to only two Tigers lost as total write offs. These weapons can also penetrate the gun mantlet at ranges under 600 meters. Penetrations of the rear of the turret cause the stowed ammunition to explode and usually result in the total destruction of the Tiger.


Panzer truppen volume 2, page 220.

Also in The Combat History of German Tiger Tank Batallion 503, pag 336

American 9.2cms is probably Soviet 10 cm BS-3.

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Re: King Tiger front armour invincibility..

Post by Kelller Osmik » 26 Nov 2022 21:25

Alejandro_ wrote:
25 Nov 2022 11:04
Kelller Osmik wrote:
02 Oct 2022 09:46
Here is Is-2 mod44, front hull penetration. Also, I think you saw the destroyed Is-2 in front of the turret from a distance of 2600 meters from Nashorn. In the Is-2 mod44 turret on the left has the same weakly armored place, where it will also penetrate.
Thank you, I had not seen this photo before. Any details on unit/circumstances?

Regarding Tiger 2, those claims are made for front upper hull. The lower part can be penetrated by a some guns. For the gun mantlet:

The experience shows that Russians build up strong anti-tank gun positions directly behind his forward elements was proved again. Up to now, happily, the employment of American 9.2cms and conical bore (7.5cm reduced to 5.7 cm) anti-tank guns has led to only two Tigers lost as total write offs. These weapons can also penetrate the gun mantlet at ranges under 600 meters. Penetrations of the rear of the turret cause the stowed ammunition to explode and usually result in the total destruction of the Tiger.


Panzer truppen volume 2, page 220.

Also in The Combat History of German Tiger Tank Batallion 503, pag 336

American 9.2cms is probably Soviet 10 cm BS-3.
Unfortunately, I only know that the photo was taken in Czechoslovakia, probably in 1947

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