Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
yantaylor
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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by yantaylor » 05 Aug 2018 20:34

It is a Mk.IV, maybe an ausf A.

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Pz III » 05 Aug 2018 23:18

Appears to be either a Ausf D or more likely an Ausf E. Seems to have the later cupola and additional armor plates.

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by bam » 07 Aug 2018 19:01

Not an ausf A

And tho close, I'm not accepting "PZIII" 's answer of "either ausf D or more likely E"... Which is it?

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 13 Aug 2018 09:46

Well , after straining my neck to see it, that looks like the cupola from a Panzer IV E.
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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Pz III » 13 Aug 2018 18:55

Ok Bam - its definitely an Ausf E. The cupola appears to have some field applied additional protection or rubber bands applied ala the Pz III's photographed in Stalingrad. Is this photo from a particular book ?

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by bam » 19 Aug 2018 17:16

sorry for the delay in replying.
y'all concentratin on that strange cupola, which has a modification, im not sure what for, but if you say youve seen it on Pz.III's as well, then it might be a particular Pz.Div modification. But ive no idea which div this is. I cant tell which battle the image is from, theres no info. My guess is its a rain shield thingy.

In reply to "is the image from a particular book", well yes, its from 1 softback book. Dunno how that helps you...
And to answer your guesses, yes Alan, it looks like a cupola from an ausf E, but, NO, ITS NOT AUSF E !! :o
time for a clue: if the cupola is fuzzy and confusing, check the other diagnostics: roof fan, visors, brake hatches, wheels
Humbly, and without trying to be arogant, I'm genuinely surprised no one has got this yet, cos the answers available easily, in the reference i would goto first, to check this kinda shis :wink:

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by peeved » 19 Aug 2018 20:26

Ausf. D with an E turret? AFAIK D didn't have a roof fan.

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bam
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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by bam » 20 Aug 2018 18:07

peeved, your answer is strictly correct, but not quite complete, its a partial answer, theres a bit more going on. Can u elaborate? Sorry to be a pain, but "Ausf. D with an E turret? " isnt the whole answer.
ausf D didnt have roof fan, correct. It is an ausf E turret. Sorry to be very pedantic, but with the moniker "peeved" i'm assuming that youre used to being, well, peeved, and you can handle it.

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 23 Aug 2018 07:52

I guess that by ussing such a bad photograph you get to make up your own answer. If it isn't a D with an E turret then why don't you tell us what it is ?
Alan

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by bam » 23 Aug 2018 11:40

OK, if u have all had enough...I'll tell. And I'm not making anything up, Alan; I didn't say it wasn't a D with an E turret, I said there was more than that.
1 major obvious diagnostic that no one mentioned is the pivoting drivers visor is ausf E, not an ausf D sliding visor. The chassis's raised brake vents and drive sprocket are obviously from ausf D.
So the FULL answer is: it's an E turret, AND an E superstructure on an ausf D chassis. And it definitively is an ausf. D. It was built this way from the factory, not a rebuild or repair. I'll let panzer tracts 4 explain:
[the manufacturer] "assembled one or more of the last ausf D with ausf E superstructures and turrets". And that photo is that 1 tank! Rare eh..
That tank was an ausf D from the 4.serie/B.W. contract, with a Fgst.Nr. between 80501-80748. Built around sept/Oct 1940. It was not from the 6.Serie, the ausf. E production batch.
(5.Serie basically got retitled as 6.Serie)
So y'all were trying to identify a singularly unique panzer, a 1 off. Hence the difficulty! Apologies for twisting your brains.
I pass the next challenge, someone else hava go

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Pz III » 28 Aug 2018 01:27

I am not convinced in any way that this is the one off Pz IV mentioned by Jentz. While I see now the minor details you mention I also can see a mix of early/Ausf D and Ausf E style roadwheels. This would indicate to me that this particular tank is likely a frankenstein of mixed parts - ie Ausf D final drives and sprockets plus some roadwheels and ausf D brake hatches on an Ausf E - simply rebuilt with parts at hand to get a tank back in service. Jentz only mentions that Ausf E superstructures and turrets were mounted on Ausf D chassis. This does not specifically mean that Ausf D final drives and running gear were used. You are making a leap here to fit the Pz IV in the picture. Unless you can pick out the serial number I won't be convinced. Sure its possible but I dont think you have enough proof.

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by peeved » 28 Aug 2018 06:05

Maybe an ex-"Brückenleger IVb" converted into a combat tank as some sources say most of the survivors were.

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 28 Aug 2018 10:44

Bam, you asked us to identify the Ausf of the tank in that photograph and then tell us that it isn't any particular Ausf at all, I call that making it up :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by yantaylor » 28 Aug 2018 20:52

Two ausfs for the price of one!

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Re: Axis Armored Vehicles Quiz

Post by bam » 28 Aug 2018 21:56

Well I've stirred a hornets nest here. Good Eh, get that grey matter going. :milwink:
No, I'm NOT saying it's 2 ausfs, that's the whole trick of the question, it's an ausf D, from the D contract serie 4, according to panzer tracts. You wanna contradict jentz? Good luck.
As to PZIII comment, well yes I can't prove it's THE tank from panzer tracts, but it ticks ALL the boxes. You are denying it on the strength of... 1 roadwheel, yes? Weak argument. I'm convinced it's an E turret & superstructure on a D chassis.
When jentz talks about an "ausf D chassis" he's including the drives, sprockets, fittings, etc, not just meaning the base metal plates, it's the whole fahrgestell.
You correctly state it has mixed roadwheels, but that's common on lots of pzIVs. Proves nowt. The front Hull plate also doesn't look like Ausf E 50mm, rather the 30+30 D type with the rounded connecting edges top n bottom.
The D type raised brake hatches have completely different hinges to the E type, so to put D raised hatches on an E chassis would require redrilling and filling to fit the old hinges. And the key lock probably wouldn't work too. All this changing that you claim, is not as likely as it being a D chassis, with the correct D narrow tracks, sprockets, brakes, armor etc. And do u have any proof that raised D brake hatches could be fitted to an E, and would successfully cover the whole of the brake vent opening made in an E chassis? Hmmm doubt it.
Pz III, You just don't want to believe it! :roll: . If frankenstein mixed part tanks like you say were made, find me another image of an ausf E with D sprocket/tracks/brakes/front-hull-armor, and I'll believe u more...or ask Craig Ellis for his opinion, I'll accept his judgement unequivocally.
But I'm loving this debate, as I said, I cannot prove 100%, but it's what I genuinely believe, and I would be chuffed to be proved wrong by an authority.
Which brings me to peevd's comments about it being a converted ex-bruckenleger, now that IS a real possibility. I like it, tho we do we know that such a conversion would have a new E superstructure, as well as turret? The images I know of bruckenlegers show a normal D superstructure, complete, with the turret ring plated over, so would a conversion back to turreted tank require a whole new superstructure?
16 ausf D were made into bridging tanks. And there is 1 niggly fact that supports peevd that no one saw... In panzer tracts 4,it says the last 68 ausf D were completed with 50mm front Hull armor. Then it says 1 or more of the last D had E turrets & superstructure. So I'd expect that D/E tank to have a 50mm hull, tho it doesnt have to be so, depends on where "1 of the last D" came from. We know old parts often got used up with new components. The tank in my photo has a D 30+30mm Hull. I had wondered about it, but cos everything else fit the D/E theory, I suppressed my doubt. Peevd's converted bruckenleger theory fits all the facts, but ONLY IF the ausf E superstructure-on-converted-bruckenleger ausf D proves correct. Thanks peevd for expanding my knowledge.
But all that WOULDN'T technically make my quiz answer wrong, it would still be ausf D, like I keep telling y'all
I nominate peevd as answering correctly and pass the next quiz questions to him. Bravo chaps! :thumbsup:

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