11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
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11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
July 7, 1944: 2 km NW of Kruhel near height 197, 11th Corps T34's on recon were ambushed by 5 SS Panthers of the 5th and 6th companies. 17 T34 knocked out to 0 Panthers. July 8: east of Maciejow by heights 206 and 220, 11th TC advancing west met Stab, 5th, 6th and 8th company Panthers, counterattacked by them around height 212 and 220. Total knocked out for both days, 99 T34, 1 Panther destroyed. Then retreating, the 11th Corps salvaged 13 badly damaged T34 but finally abandoned a total of 103. Its CO F.N. Rudkin relieved of command.
The 11 Guards Tank Corps fared better (CO Gusakovskii) serving with the 1 GTA with the 1st Guards Tank Army. 12 July: 46 T34/76, 70 T34/85, 12 SU 85 and 21 ISU 152. In July 17 and 18 combats, lost 8 T34/76, 11 T34/85 and 3 SU 85 destroyed, 1 T34/85 in short repair (24 hr) and 4 T34/76, 2 T34/85 and 3 SU 85 in long repair. Its 44th Guards Tank Brigade crossed the Bug River on the 17th, established a bridgehead near Dobrochin on the 18th. 2200 on July 18: 4 T34/76 and 17 T34/85 combat fit (on the 12th it had 13 T34/76 and 24 T34/85 fit). The 1 GTA had on July 12 a total of 416 AFV and lost 232 through August 14. The 11 GTC received 50 new T34 mostly 85 mm, after August 21.
The 11 Guards Tank Corps fared better (CO Gusakovskii) serving with the 1 GTA with the 1st Guards Tank Army. 12 July: 46 T34/76, 70 T34/85, 12 SU 85 and 21 ISU 152. In July 17 and 18 combats, lost 8 T34/76, 11 T34/85 and 3 SU 85 destroyed, 1 T34/85 in short repair (24 hr) and 4 T34/76, 2 T34/85 and 3 SU 85 in long repair. Its 44th Guards Tank Brigade crossed the Bug River on the 17th, established a bridgehead near Dobrochin on the 18th. 2200 on July 18: 4 T34/76 and 17 T34/85 combat fit (on the 12th it had 13 T34/76 and 24 T34/85 fit). The 1 GTA had on July 12 a total of 416 AFV and lost 232 through August 14. The 11 GTC received 50 new T34 mostly 85 mm, after August 21.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Source and reason why you posted this, please.
With best, J-P
With best, J-P
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Russian and German documents that show their kill claims and losses for different tank combats are available from various sources, such as the great number of German FHO (Foreign Armies East) copies of captured Russian documents (some translated into German), and so researchers can combine German/Russian after action, AFV strength reports and other data in order to find out the most accurate results of these battles.
I should get around to posting German/Russian material on the celebrated July 12,1943 battle during Operation Citadel. For example, 1 SS workshop documents reveal how many Leibstandarte Panzers actually were destroyed and repaired. One item: I have a map that shows the location of the Russian tank trap mentioned in various reports about the combats on this day but apparently its not illustrated in any book.
I am very interested in WW II armor combats, so want to know as best that can be determined the actual reality of these, rather than rely on boasts, propaganda, confusions, after the war flawed memories, lies? that grow like weeds in too many gardens.
I should get around to posting German/Russian material on the celebrated July 12,1943 battle during Operation Citadel. For example, 1 SS workshop documents reveal how many Leibstandarte Panzers actually were destroyed and repaired. One item: I have a map that shows the location of the Russian tank trap mentioned in various reports about the combats on this day but apparently its not illustrated in any book.
I am very interested in WW II armor combats, so want to know as best that can be determined the actual reality of these, rather than rely on boasts, propaganda, confusions, after the war flawed memories, lies? that grow like weeds in too many gardens.
Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
I quite agree with you here. If you're interested in the Prokhorovka battle, your best bet would be either Zamulin's "Demolishing the Myth", or Nipe's "Blood Steel and Myth", both of which have this battle studied in great depth. For my part, if you could cite your sources for the fighting on 7-8 July, I would appreciate it a lot.Miles Krogfus wrote:Russian and German documents that show their kill claims and losses for different tank combats are available from various sources, such as the great number of German FHO (Foreign Armies East) copies of captured Russian documents (some translated into German), and so researchers can combine German/Russian after action, AFV strength reports and other data in order to find out the most accurate results of these battles.
I should get around to posting German/Russian material on the celebrated July 12,1943 battle during Operation Citadel. For example, 1 SS workshop documents reveal how many Leibstandarte Panzers actually were destroyed and repaired. One item: I have a map that shows the location of the Russian tank trap mentioned in various reports about the combats on this day but apparently its not illustrated in any book.
I am very interested in WW II armor combats, so want to know as best that can be determined the actual reality of these, rather than rely on boasts, propaganda, confusions, after the war flawed memories, lies? that grow like weeds in too many gardens.
Since you seem to be interested in this subject, you might like my thread on Tiger tank actions in the West. It's still a work in progress, but deals with the same sort of thing.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... p?t=156452
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
John Erickson in "The Road to Berlin" mentions that Rudkin was removed from command. The primary material mostly used are Russian and German strength/loss reports, including resupply of tanks, topographical maps of the combat area correlated with unit postions and movements. Secondary sources: Ewald Klapdor "Viking Panzers" 2011 English translation, Jean Mabire "Die SS Panzer Divison Wiking" 1983 German translation, Peter Strassner "European Volunteers" 1988 and the largely photo book "Verweht sind die Spuren" 1979 are of interest.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 29 Oct 2015, 07:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Rather than 'shotgun sourcing' perhaps you could post an individual source?
The book 'European Volunteers' by Peter Strassner
http://www.amazon.co.uk/European-Volunt ... 0921991894
has a different narrative for July 7-8 than the version in the opening post.
The book 'European Volunteers' by Peter Strassner
http://www.amazon.co.uk/European-Volunt ... 0921991894
has a different narrative for July 7-8 than the version in the opening post.
Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Awesome post! Were the Soviet tank losses for 7-8 July from Russian loss reports?Miles Krogfus wrote:John Erickson in "The Road to Berlin" mentions that Rudkin was removed from command. The primary material mostly used are Russian and German strength/loss reports, including resupply of tanks, topographical maps of the combat area correlated with unit postions and movements. Secondary sources: Ewald Klapdor "Viking Panzers" 2011 English translation, Jean Mabire "Die SS Panzer Divison Wiking" 1983 German translation, Peter Strassner "European Volunteers" 1988 and the largely photo book "Verweht sind die Spuren" 1979 are of interest.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Miles Krogfus wrote:July 7, 1944: 2 km NW of Kruhel near height 197, 11th Corps T34's on recon were ambushed by 5 SS Panthers of the 5th and 6th companies. 17 T34 knocked out to 0 Panthers.
European Volunteers. The 5. SS Panzer-Division 'Wiking'
Peter Strassner. JJF 2006
Before the necessary movements could be carried out, however, the Soviets launched a surprise attack on the afternoon of 6 July near Nowe-Koszary with 17 tanks and mounted infantry. The following description of the attack was provided by the former regimental adjutant, SS-Obersturmf~hrer Lichte:
Brilliant sunshine! We --the liaison officer, SS-Untersturmfuhrer Jensen,
and I - had gone to pour a few buckets ofwater over our heads to cool off.
This ritual was suddenly interrupted by an unusually intense fighter-bomber
attack. Wearing only our bathing trunks, we jumped into a foxhole in front
of our burning command post.
I cranked the field telephone we had brought with us in vain. The lines to the
companies had been broken. The billeting area was under heavy artillery fire.
Suddenly, we heard the sounds of engines. ''What idiot's moving around in
a vehicle in this kind of fire?" Jensen yelled. As we lifted our noses above the
edge of the foxhole, we saw 3 T 34s about 50 meters away. Luckily, the tank
commanders poking out of the turrets were looking in the wrong direction.
In a few bounds, we reached our well-camouflaged tanks, which were nearby,
and destroyed 2 of the T 34s. The third was handled by the commander, who
appeared just at that moment. From this short range, our rounds had such an
effect that all 3 tanks were blown to pieces.
In a short time this Soviet reconnaissance-in-force was beaten back. The
main body of the Kampfgruppe then changed its positions, as ordered by the
corps. The regimental command post initially moved to Tupaly and then to
the eastern. part of Biliczy.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Is it possible to post the information that led to the statement 17 T-34 were knocked? It might help explain why the book (with accounts of the men who were there ) claims only 3 were knocked out.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Topo maps and various reports/comments by Panzer crews locate different shootouts. The Panther zugs were split up here and there. The quoted book deals with one of these locations. The quoted officer Lichte saw and combatted 3 tanks not the whole Russian force.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
Can you post the 'reports' so we can see how the confusion arose?Miles Krogfus wrote:Topo maps and various reports/comments by Panzer crews locate different shootouts. The Panther zugs were split up here and there. The quoted book deals with one of these locations. The quoted officer Lichte was in a Panther that itself saw and combatted 3 tanks not the whole Russian force.
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
DK in Gold recommendations state (1) for Ustuf. Nicolussi-Leck: in the lead with the 8th Panther Komp, on 7.7.1944 he "schuss 6 Panzer brennend ab." as his company destroyed more. Then (2) Lichte's DK in Gold document: on 8 July he "3 Feindpanzer abschuss . . . 99 Feindpanzer konnten an diesem Tage, ohne eigene Verluste, von der Abteilung brennend abgeschossen werden." Other German and Russian data complete the story of this early July 1944 fiasco for the carelessly led 11th Tank Corps . . .
Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
11th Tank Corps (20th, 36th, 65th Tank Brigades; 12th Motorized Rifle Brigade).
Here is a combat report of 36th Tank Brigade for 7-10 of July 1944 (6 pages): https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=134586400
Brigade had 21+24 T 34/85 and 23 T 34/76 early on the 7th. Total losses 42 tanks after encounter with SS Wiking.
Here is a combat report of 65th Tank Brigade for 7-10 of July 1944 (6 pages): https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=134586407
If I read correctly brigade lost one tank on mine on the 7th of July.
Losses occurred on the 8th:
17 T 34/76 lost (16 abandoned on enemy's territory + 1 burned out)
23 T 34/85 lost (15 abandoned on enemy's territory + 8 burned out)
No action on 9th as brigade was pulled back to rest.
Both reports (for 36th and 65th TB) have maps.
20th TB was a Corps reserve and it seems it did not take part in combat.
11th Tank Corps diaries here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/jbd/133726765/ have these total losses:
8-9 July - 79 x T34, 4 x SU-76
Not sure where 103 number of losses came from?
Here is a combat report of 36th Tank Brigade for 7-10 of July 1944 (6 pages): https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=134586400
Brigade had 21+24 T 34/85 and 23 T 34/76 early on the 7th. Total losses 42 tanks after encounter with SS Wiking.
Here is a combat report of 65th Tank Brigade for 7-10 of July 1944 (6 pages): https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=134586407
If I read correctly brigade lost one tank on mine on the 7th of July.
Losses occurred on the 8th:
17 T 34/76 lost (16 abandoned on enemy's territory + 1 burned out)
23 T 34/85 lost (15 abandoned on enemy's territory + 8 burned out)
No action on 9th as brigade was pulled back to rest.
Both reports (for 36th and 65th TB) have maps.
20th TB was a Corps reserve and it seems it did not take part in combat.
11th Tank Corps diaries here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/jbd/133726765/ have these total losses:
8-9 July - 79 x T34, 4 x SU-76
Not sure where 103 number of losses came from?
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Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
A total of "evacuated" is sometimes given in Soviet reports of combat results, and might include both KO'd and technical. After the Russian reports were written, when the units moved off they couid have left some non-repairable tanks behind, so perhaps actually "abandoned a total of 103."
Re: 11th and 11th Guards Tank Corps July 1944
I can't read Russian, so I can't analyze the documents the way I normally would like. But this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks a lot for posting.
If I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, they more or less confirm the action that Wiking reported. I don't know of any other German units that could've been responsible for 11 TC's losses on those days, so it does seem that Wiking destroyed 80+ tanks for one Panther. Incredible.
Any debate over whether the Germans destroyed 80 or 100 tanks on those days amounts to nitpicking. A little bit of inflation is hardly a surprise, and in this report at least, Wiking's claim matches very closely with the Russian losses.
If I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, they more or less confirm the action that Wiking reported. I don't know of any other German units that could've been responsible for 11 TC's losses on those days, so it does seem that Wiking destroyed 80+ tanks for one Panther. Incredible.
Any debate over whether the Germans destroyed 80 or 100 tanks on those days amounts to nitpicking. A little bit of inflation is hardly a surprise, and in this report at least, Wiking's claim matches very closely with the Russian losses.