The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Yoozername
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Yoozername » 08 Sep 2017 20:19

I was mostly pointing out the Soviet test methodology....from the OP

Here are results of the spring 1942 testing of a captured German gun and its AP rounds, firing at 45 MM plate with HB 450+/- 40, as for the T 34 glacis. (A total of six regular APC, APBC and APCR projectiles were tested, I mention two of them).
At 0 degrees total deflection of 45 mm plate: PTP 363 m/s, PSP 415 m/s. 15 degrees 375/465 m/s, 30 deg. 411/539 m/s, 45 degrees 613/770 m/s, 60 deg. 809 m/s PTP no PSP penetration.

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Mobius
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Mobius » 09 Sep 2017 16:56

Here's a Russian document on that subject.
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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Christian Ankerstjerne » 12 Sep 2017 18:29

Mobius wrote:Why doesn't the table data reflect this penetration plateau? It shows a 67mm penetration instead of the 56mm from the graph.
http://www.panzerworld.com/5-cm-pak-38

Here is a Impact velocity table of the 50mm/L60 APC
50mmL60APC.jpg


Those numbers match the German firing table quite closely:

200 m: 783 m/s
500 m: 707 m/s
1000 m: 591 m/s
1500 m: 491 m/s

The penetration data on my website for the Pzgr. 39 also matches the data in the German firing table.

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Mobius
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Mobius » 12 Sep 2017 20:41

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
Mobius wrote:Why doesn't the table data reflect this penetration plateau? It shows a 67mm penetration instead of the 56mm from the graph.
http://www.panzerworld.com/5-cm-pak-38

Here is a Impact velocity table of the 50mm/L60 APC
50mmL60APC.jpg


Those numbers match the German firing table quite closely:

200 m: 783 m/s
500 m: 707 m/s
1000 m: 591 m/s
1500 m: 491 m/s

The penetration data on my website for the Pzgr. 39 also matches the data in the German firing table.


That's little different than the firing table data I have:
50mm/L60 APC
0m: 835 m/s
100m: 809 m/s
500m: 706 m/s
1000m: 590 m/s
1500m: 489 m/s

Could your data be for the Pzgr. 38 AP?

Still I could of done a better job of adjusting the ballistic coefficient until they matched.
should be able to locate on page 89.
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/handbuch ... 361945.pdf

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Christian Ankerstjerne » 12 Sep 2017 22:00

It refers specifically to the 5 cm Pzgr and 5 cm Pzgr 39, with a muzzle velocity of 835 m/s, and a weight of 2.06 kg, from the April 1943 version of H. Dv. 119/313.

I would venture to say that the difference is smaller than for what the altitude, temperature, and humidity would account.

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Mobius
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Mobius » 13 Sep 2017 01:16

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote: April 1943 version of H. Dv. 119/313.
.

Which I would take as a primary source.

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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Miles Krogfus » 17 Sep 2017 19:35

Here are 3 pages from the DHHV daybook with data from the Metallurgic Quality Control Department. The "Sicher" or 'safe' range of German armor plate of different chemical contents tested by 50 mm AP did not change from 1942 to 1945. The Nov.1942 TL 4033 curve for uncapped AP (not from DHHV) is a draft version with different AP weight and velocity than later shown on German documents. DHHV page 700 has an August 25,1942 test graph, using 50 mm AP. DHHV page 1355 has the April 19,1943 data showing Sicher thickness of plates tested by various mm of all types of AP : plates 7 to 100 mm. thick.
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Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 18 Sep 2017 08:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Miles Krogfus » 17 Sep 2017 23:07

Two more pages from the April 19,1943 DHHV document:
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Re: The Russians test the Pak 38 and its PzGr 39

Postby Miles Krogfus » 19 Sep 2017 00:26

This extract from DHHV page 696 shows the results of the 50 mm uncapped AP firings diplayed on page 700 above. The February 1945 50 mm uncapped AP curve shows that with such 60-110 mm panzer plate as listed on page 696, even with revised chemical contents, there was no late war lessening of penetration resistance allowed producers.
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