German discarding sabot rounds

[Account deleted]

Okay, so back to the original topic, is there any way to link to the real sources while not making them completely public?

Because while the WT Maus is pretty much the “Suffering.PNG” meme right now (and circulating rumors only suggest it will get even worse with the game’s next update), the Maus, Jagdtiger, Brummbar, StuH 105, and Sturmpanzer II all could use these sorts of rounds. But finding the actual source materials is very difficult and in some cases they’re not publicly available, so I’m kinda left wondering what can actually be done, if anything.

[critical mass]

The initial velocity the game uses is 880m/s, so it’s not even the 925m/s used in reality nor the 950m/s used in testing.

There is a PaK44 firing table with 880 m/s so they must be using that. Of course there is another one with 920 m/s.

Are those velocities for different propellant charges I presume?

I don't know. I also have a Technishche Daten for 12,8cm/L55 Pak 80 with a MV of 950 m/s. But there is no firing table to go with this.

The 128mm FLAK40 (L/61 barrel, STUHRER EMIL) had a listed mv=880m/s. PAK80 (L/55) =950m/s (derated 920 m/s)& KWK44 (L/55)= 950m/s (derated 925m/s). For some reason the L/61 had a lower initial velocity than the L/55 and this may have caused confusion.

[Account deleted]

The initial velocity the game uses is 880m/s, so it’s not even the 925m/s used in reality nor the 950m/s used in testing.

There is a PaK44 firing table with 880 m/s so they must be using that. Of course there is another one with 920 m/s.

Are those velocities for different propellant charges I presume?

I don't know. I also have a Technishche Daten for 12,8cm/L55 Pak 80 with a MV of 950 m/s. But there is no firing table to go with this.

The 128mm FLAK40 (L/61 barrel, STUHRER EMIL) had a listed mv=880m/s. PAK80 (L/55) =950m/s (derated 920 m/s)& KWK44 (L/55)= 950m/s (derated 925m/s). For some reason the L/61 had a lower initial velocity than the L/55 and this may have caused confusion.

The Sturer Emil ingame has the same velocity on its rounds but mysteriously even less penetrating power than the Jagdtiger and Maus, I’m assuming that’s due to a different breech design and possibly different size propellant charge.

[Account deleted]

I hope I didn’t hopelessly derail this thread with my own selfishness, did I?

If I did, @critical mass, I’m sorry.

Any hope of getting this thread back on course or is there just a lack of new info to talk about? Regarding any WT bug reporting I’d need scans of the front cover and specific pages of Rh-8-1326 relevant to the subject matter, then I could post the official source names in the bottom of the report. I wouldn’t necessarily need the entire thing.

[Paul Lakowski]

maybe the higher velocity would increase barrel ware? That could cripple accuracy.

PAK 80 has 1000-2000 rounds barrel life [not bad for a PAK]

https://panzerworld.com/12-8-cm-pak-80

FLAK need to fire a lot more shells to have any effect.

[Account deleted]

maybe the higher velocity would increase barrel ware? That could cripple accuracy.

PAK 80 has 1000-2000 rounds barrel life [not bad for a PAK]

https://panzerworld.com/12-8-cm-pak-80

FLAK need to fire a lot more shells to have any effect.

That’s always a possibility.

[critical mass]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

[seppw]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

He's asking why the normal Pzgr43 fired from the Sturer Emil would have lower penetration values than when fired from a JT or Maus. It has nothing to do with sub caliber rounds, although this is what the thread is about.

[Paul Lakowski]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

most saboted rounds erode gun barrels faster than full calibre shots.

[Account deleted]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

most saboted rounds erode gun barrels faster than full calibre shots.

Lower weight = higher velocity in barrel = more friction?

[Account deleted]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

He's asking why the normal Pzgr43 fired from the Sturer Emil would have lower penetration values than when fired from a JT or Maus. It has nothing to do with sub caliber rounds, although this is what the thread is about.

I’m just assuming its a smaller propellant charge or different breech/barrel design.

[Paul Lakowski]

128mm firing 28.3kg Pzgr 43 at 920m/s:
mV=920m/s (derated)
effective weight: 28.3kg
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 11.98MJ

128mm firing Pzgr Ts at 1230m/s:
mv: 1230m/s
effective weight: 13.0kg (during barrel propagation, flying weight is lower (9.85kg) -but irrelevant here)
L=55 cal
muzzle energy: 9.83MJ

Thus, firing the sub calibre -TS projectiles entails only 82% of the barrel stress amd recoil forces which would be involved with firing the full calibre Pzgr43 projectile. Therefore, I am not convinced that either barrel life or accuracy would be much, if at all- negatively affected.

most saboted rounds erode gun barrels faster than full calibre shots.

Lower weight = higher velocity in barrel = more friction?

Maybe-

Most of the problems with SABOT shells involves the actual design of the SABOT its self. The simple POT SABOT still took decade of research to make it workable.

[critical mass]

The sintered iron, FES driving bands had some curious effects at high velocity firing due to less heat transfer of sintered iron compared to copper. The difference was strong enough that some engeneerers preferred them over bands made from copper for high velocity applications even had the latter been able in plenty quantity. 33892/43 g. states that the barrel life of leFH increased by 100% when firing projectiles with -FES instead of copper driving bands.
A reduction of barrel life isn´t mentioned in the primary sources I have studied in connection with sub calibre APCBC-DS. Without data from primary sources sources indicating otherwise, the default position should be neutral. It´s worth keeping in mind that the barrel stress involved was ca. 20% less strong then it would have been firing a full calibre Pzgr43.

He's asking why the normal Pzgr43 fired from the Sturer Emil would have lower penetration values than when fired from a JT or Maus. It has nothing to do with sub caliber rounds, although this is what the thread is about.

My recollection of the time schedule suggests that it is impossible that the STUHRER EMIL ever fired a 28.3kg Pzgr43. They would have fired the 26.35kg Pzgr Gg instead. This projectile may indeed have had less penetration than the Pzgr43 (different heat treatment).

[Account deleted]

So are there any available penetration data for AP Röchlingshells?

It was stated pretty early in this thread that they were at least made and test-fired but ran into problems regarding fitting them into the existing ammo racks on 75mm Kwk40 Panzer IV models. Were such rounds made for other antitank guns or artillery pieces, and if so, how effective were they?

[critical mass]

Long rod, fin stabilized AP were for concrete penetration (bunker busting). Altough they seem to have been trialed vs steel, too, penetration compared unfavourably to APCBC, particularely at high angles of attack, because the steel penetrator was very long but not strong enough to stay intact, handing advantage to the shorter projectile, which helps staying intact when You have to negotiate acute angles of obliquity and thick armor. I have no information about tests with the 7.5cm APDSFS, though I vaguely remember they were considered only for the MAUS secondary 75mm gun.
Post ww2 long rod APDSFS had improved performance primarely because they could of use much higher strength penetrator materials.