Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

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Alejandro_
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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Alejandro_ » 03 Mar 2020 13:06

Neat graphs Peasant
(X)'es are the actual ballistic limits used as reference points to estimate the curves.
The US tested a 122mm gun with BR-471B. It must have come from the IS-3 supplied by Israel after 1967 war. The results can be seen below (original graph courtesy of Mobius).

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Mobius » 03 Mar 2020 17:40

Alejandro_ wrote:
03 Mar 2020 13:06
The US tested a 122mm gun with BR-471B. It must have come from the IS-3 supplied by Israel after 1967 war. The results can be seen below (original graph courtesy of Mobius).
It was an A-19 so not tank mounted. I don't know when or where the US acquired it.

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Peasant » 07 Mar 2020 18:18

Would you look at this:

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This thread is quoted as a reputable source in the same list as WW2:BAG book. I dont know about you guys, but I'm flattered. :)

Source: https://www.quora.com/How-well-did-the- ... ation-even

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Miles Krogfus » 07 Mar 2020 19:28

The September 1944 sharp nose BR 471 AP 671 m/s penetration of a Panther glacis that I refer to in post #1 above.
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critical mass
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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by critical mass » 07 Mar 2020 21:51

Thanks Miles. It’s a good example of how a ductile holing event can have crack formation started if the impact is too close to a free edge, like here (1-1,5 cal distant).
Whether or not this lowered the limit velocity is unclear. The interlocked plates supported the edge until fairly late in the penetration.It should be ok except for any secondary impacts close to the area affected.

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Contender » 09 Mar 2020 20:01

Miles Krogfus wrote:
07 Mar 2020 19:28
The September 1944 sharp nose BR 471 AP 671 m/s penetration of a Panther glacis that I refer to in post #1 above.
Is there any more to this test? All I've ever seen is that exact picture in varying resolution accompanied by the poster's or website's opinion. :?

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Peasant » 12 Mar 2020 00:12

Interestingly enough in this JS-3 armour trial both sharp tipped and blunt 122mm shells have the respective terminal velocities/distances correct: https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/2332035.html

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Paul Lakowski » 12 Mar 2020 02:52

Peasant wrote:
02 Mar 2020 15:45
British trials in April of 1958, with soviet 100mm BR-412B AP shells. Source.

(X)'es are the actual ballistic limits used as reference points to estimate the curves.

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Thanks for the graphs , its good to see the old experts are still around.

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Peasant » 27 Mar 2020 13:09

A report titled "Conclusions about fighting and technical qualities of ISU-122 SPGs and IS-2 heavy tanks." sent 15th of March 1945 to the commander of armored and mechanized forces of the 1st Ukrainian front general-colonel Nikolai Novikov says, among other things:
"ИСУ-122 и ИС-122 обладают мощной артиллерийской системой, которая на дистанции 1300 метров пробивает броню танков "Тигр" и "Пантера" противника. При стрельбе по танку типа "Пантера" с дистанции 2000 метров в лоб бронебойный снаряд рикошетирует, не пробивая брони. Меткость стрельбы хорошая. Пушка, действуя с дистанции 1500 - 2000 метров, имеет весьма незначительное рассеивание и может уничтожать все огневые точки."
Translation:
"ISU-152 and IS-122 posses a powerful weaponry which at a distance of 1300m penetrates armour of the enemy "Tiger" and "Panther" tanks. When fired upon a "Panther" tank from a distance of 2000m from the front the armor piercing shell ricochets without holing the armor. Accuracy is good. Gun firing from distances of 1500-2000m has a negligible dispersion and can destroy any fortification."

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Contender » 27 Mar 2020 22:03

Peasant wrote:
27 Mar 2020 13:09
"ISU-152 and IS-122 posses a powerful weaponry which at a distance of 1300m penetrates armour of the enemy "Tiger" and "Panther" tanks
In that case how does the 1,200 meters ( 122 mm vs a Tiger I E) & 600-700 meters (122 mm vs Panther) figures fit into this? Those figures were from a soviet 1944 test as well.... varying quality as Rexford's booklet suggests? Is report generalizing the two taking the biggest figure?

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Peasant » 27 Mar 2020 22:54

Contender wrote:
27 Mar 2020 22:03
Peasant wrote:
27 Mar 2020 13:09
"ISU-152 and IS-122 posses a powerful weaponry which at a distance of 1300m penetrates armour of the enemy "Tiger" and "Panther" tanks
In that case how does the 1,200 ( vs Tiger) & 600-700 meter (vs Panther) figures fit into this? those were supposedly from a soviet 1944 test as well.
Note that it says "penetrates at" not "penetrates up to". This is not a technical document it's a summary of practical experience the front line troops. This is likely was not intended to be taken as the maximum range this gun could penetrate armour of these targets but rather the average distance from which they were successfully engaged, and is dependent of other variables as well like accuracy, eventual presence of additional side angle ecc.

Since this is a document from 1945, here the soviet vehicles likely used the newer 122mm BR-471B AP shells with windshield which would have extended the effective range relative to the earlier results obtained.

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Miles Krogfus » 28 Mar 2020 01:02

Read post #6 above. As the war progressed, men were taken from factories and males up to 16 years old and women were impressed into use to replace them. There are thousands of archive pages available to study Russian Armor makers and AP factories if one is so inclined. Easier to produce sharp nose 100 and 122 mm AP were sent to combat units. Germans defending Berlin did not face the B models of these rounds. Incorrect Russian firing tables combined with firing tests against German tanks using FT flawed data made Russian projectile experts assume that it was not necessary to use B model 100 and 122 mm APBC against such panzers as Tigers I and II as well as the Panther. In 1951 American translations of the Russian firing tables used in WW II were issued on a restricted basis. See the pages below. No B models for the 100 and 122 AP rounds were listed for use by any Russian FT, as the Germans also noted earlier when they obtained Soviet FT copies from captured SU85, SU100 and 122 mm AFV.
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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Contender » 28 Mar 2020 10:55

Miles Krogfus wrote:
28 Mar 2020 01:02
Thus easier to produce sharp nose 100 and 122 mm AP were sent to combat units. Germans defending Berlin did not face the B models of these rounds.

Is this true for the 152 mm as well?
The sharp nose might have been easier to produce but the quality of the round suffered compared to the "B" shot.

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Peasant » 28 Mar 2020 14:57

Miles Krogfus wrote:
28 Mar 2020 01:02
Read post #6 above. As the war progressed, men were taken from factories and males up to 16 years old and women were impressed into use to replace them. There are thousands of archive pages available to study Russian Armor makers and AP factories if one is so inclined. Thus easier to produce sharp nose 100 and 122 mm AP were sent to combat units. Germans defending Berlin did not face the B models of these rounds.
Have you found among those archive pages any documents indicating that this was the case, without leaving room for interpretation? Then, please, feel free to share them with us.

The ranges reported here fit together quite nicely with the charts I've posted earlier for 122mm BR-471B against Panther glacis(85mm/55°) without the need for introducing any additional entities, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

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Re: Vulnerability of the Panther Glacis to 122 AP

Post by Miles Krogfus » 29 Mar 2020 02:51

During WW II the JSU152 also only used the sharp nose AP not the B model.
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