German 12,8 cm PAK 80

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Miles Krogfus
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German 12,8 cm PAK 80

Post by Miles Krogfus » 22 Jan 2016 07:12

Built in the Krupp Bertha-Werk, Breslau: 2 produced 1943, 118 in 1944, 30 in 1945. 67,900 HE 18,000 APCBC rounds produced 1944, 21,400 HE 5,500 APCBC 1945. Its Firing Table has these figures: MV of 28.3 kg PzGr 43: 920m/s, 100 meters 912 m/s, 500 m 881 m/s, 1000 m 843 m/s, 1500 m 806 m/s, 2000 m 770 m/s, 2500 m 734 m/s, 3000 m 699 m/s, 3500 m 666 m/s, 4000 m 633 m/s, 4500 m 602 m/s, 5000 m 572 m/s. Official penetration at 30 degrees: 500 meters 219 mm, 1000 m 200 mm, 1500 m 187 mm. Krupp figures: at 100 meters 225 mm, 500 m 213 mm, 1000 m 199 mm, 1500 m 186 mm, 2000 m 173 mm, 2500 m 160 mm, 3000 m 148 mm, 3500 m 136 mm, 4000 m 124 mm. Accuracy figures: 50% streuung nach der Breite/Hohe: .1/0 100 m, .3/.2 500 m, .6/.4 1000 m, .9/.6 1500 m, 1.2/.9 2000 m, 1.5/1.1 2500,1.7/1.3 3000 m, 2.0/1.5 3500 m, 2.3/1.7 4000 m, 2.6/1.9 4500 m, 2.9/2.2 5000m. So then Treffer % eine Zielflache 2.5/2 meters: 100(100) 100-500 meters, 100(75) 1000 m, 91(47) 1500 m, 75(30) 2000 m, 60(20) 2500 m, 47(15) 3000 m, 37(11) 3500 m, 30(8) 4000 m, 25(7) 4500 m, 21(6) 5000 m: die eingeklammerten Werte gelten fur kriegsmassige Streuung (doppelte 50% Streuung).
The main problem employing this beast would come after it destroyed Soviet armor at long range, Russian infantry then could be sent to locate what was killing their tanks, and thus this PAK, being so heavy and not easy to move, might get caught and destroyed in close combat.

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Sheldrake
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Jan 2016 09:57

Miles Krogfus wrote: The main problem employing this beast would come after it destroyed Soviet armor at long range, Russian infantry then could be sent to locate what was killing their tanks, and thus this PAK, being so heavy and not easy to move, might get caught and destroyed in close combat.

Or perhaps artillery fire? I think a faster response to an unexpected long range anti tank gun than an infantry patrol.

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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Miles Krogfus » 23 Jan 2016 19:00

Here are figures for the rival Soviet 152 mm firing the BR 540 AP projectile weight of 48.78 Kg. 3.9 calibers without fuze in length, gun barrel life with full charge rounds of 2500 shots, muzzle velocity 600 m/s, range given with 0 and 30 degrees deflection: 140/114 mm at 100 meters, 136/111 mm 300 m, 132/108 mm 500 m, 124/101 mm 1000 m, 117/95 mm 1500 m, 109/89 2000 m, 102/84 mm 2500 m, 96/78 mm 3000 m, 90/73 mm 3500 m, 85/69 mm at 4000 meters. Official figures with Jacob de Marra formula K of 2400.

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Mobius
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Mobius » 23 Jan 2017 15:08

How does the PaK 80 differ from the PaK 44?

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Manuferey
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Manuferey » 24 Jan 2017 02:35

I am curious to where the designations Pak 80 and Pak 44 come from. I can only find references to 12.8 cm K 44 and 12.8 cm K 81 series as these guns were supposed to be used both as field artillery and as Pak. :?

See the following excerpts from "German Artillery of WW2" by Ian Hogg:
K44-K81.jpg
12,8cmK44Hogg.jpg
Emmanuel
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peeved
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by peeved » 24 Jan 2017 07:11

From Gerätliste D 97/1+ Sachgebiet 5-12 as of 12.04.1945 transcribed in Waffen-Revue Nr. 84:
Gerät-Nr., Benennung des Geräts and Kurzbezeichnung:
5-1201; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Kp) (geändert in 81); 12,8 cm K 81 (Kp)
5-1202; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Rh) (geändert in K 81); 12,8 cm K 81 (Rh)
5-1203+; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Sk) (gestrichen); 12,8 cm K 44 (Sk)
...
5-1209; 12,8-cm-Panzerjägerkanone 44 (geänd. 80); 12,8 cm Pak 80
5-1211+; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Sf) (Kp 1) (gestrichen); 12,8 cm K 44 (Sf)
5-1212+; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Sf) (Kp 2) (gestrichen); 12,8 cm K 44 (Sf)
5-1213+; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Sf) (Rh 1) (gestrichen); 12,8 cm K 44 (Sf)
5-1214+; 12,8-cm-Kanone 44 (Sf) (Rh 2) (gestrichen); 12,8 cm K 44 (Sf)
...
5-1221; 12,8-cm-Kanone 81/1; 12,8 cm K 81/1
...
5-1222; 12,8-cm-Kanone 81/2; 12,8 cm K 81/2
5-1223; 12,8-cm-Kanone 81/4 (Sf); 12,8 cm K 81/4 (Sf)
...
5-1290; 12,8-cm-Kanone 81/3 (Sf); 12,8 cm K 81/3 (Sf)

Looks like 12,8 cm K 44, K 81, Pak 44 & Pak 80 were all legit nomenclature at times (and Hogg got the K 44/K 81 timeline backwards)

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peeved
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by peeved » 24 Jan 2017 09:01

Mobius wrote:How does the PaK 80 differ from the PaK 44?
AFAIK 12,8 cm Pak 80 was just Pak 44 renamed. The Jagdtiger gun was developed from Maus' 12,8 cm KwK 44 which itself was later renamed KwK 82.

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Mobius
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Mobius » 24 Jan 2017 13:12

Miles Krogfus wrote:Accuracy figures: 50% streuung nach der Breite/Hohe: .1/0 100 m, .3/.2 500 m, .6/.4 1000 m,
Also interesting that the horizontal deviation is larger than the vertical deviation. While with the 88mm/L71 and many other German guns there is more vertical deviation vs. horizontal deviation.

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Manuferey
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Manuferey » 25 Jan 2017 01:20

Thank you, Markus.

K 44 first then K 81.

Is Pak 44 another designation of K 44 or was it a different gun altogether or same gun on a "Pak" carriage? I'ts getting confusing. :?

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peeved
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by peeved » 25 Jan 2017 09:05

Hi Emmanuel

Nomenclaturewise the 12,8 cm Pak 44 was rather like 7,5 cm Pak 39: A weapon intended for tracked Panzerjäger chassis; Jagdtiger in the case of Pak 44. In the Speer Protocols for 1...4.November 1944 it is mentioned that Hitler decided that superfluous guns from the Jagdtiger production should be installed on 60 free Russian Kanone 433 carriages [K 81/2?] and hoped that another 100 carriages could be made available. OTOH Hitler called the Krupp and Rheinmetall [K 81 (Kp) and (Rh) ?] pieces projected new 12,8 cm guns.

Markus

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Manuferey
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Manuferey » 26 Jan 2017 00:03

Thank you, Markus.

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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by SIS 5 » 26 Jan 2017 15:03

Hi,

maybe it is interesting for You:
the pics/drawings of these four guns out of the booklet "Die deutschen Geschütze 1939 - 1945" by F. M. von Senger und Etterlin.

Regards

Bert
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peeved
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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by peeved » 26 Jan 2017 20:40

Hi Bert,

Quite useful, Yes.

Although especially the K 81/2 pic is heavily retouched, one can see how the 81/1 and /2 basically were Pak 80s on captured carriages while the K 44/K 81 (Kp) & (Rh) were new developments.

Adi 1 - Hogg 0 (Although Little Adolf really should have said Kanonenhaubitze instead of Kanone 433)

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Re: German 128 mm PAK 80

Post by Miles Krogfus » 21 Mar 2017 22:39

The FT has a MV of 920 m/s but the sheet below giving the PAK 80 official penetration figures lists a M/V of 950 m/s, so the figures I give above with my FT post need adjusting.
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Re: German 12,8 cm PAK 80

Post by KillaKiwi » 10 Jun 2018 12:19

I'm pretty sure that the 950m/s value from the Dattenblätter referes to the normal 128mm PzGr. and not the 128mm PzGr. 43.
If both rounds had the same kinetic energy than the PzGr. would have a v0 of 950m/s compared to the 920m/s of the PzGr. 43, since
the weight of the PzGr. is 26.35kg compared to the 28.3kg of the PzGr. 43.

At OP: Can you upload a picture of the firing table for the 128mm PzGr. 43?

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