7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#466

Post by Yoozername » 11 May 2018, 21:44

Not sure about that site.

Eh, when in doubt, go to the Finns. They certainly had early experience with the Soviet weapons and ammunition...regarding the F-22...or as they call it...76 K/36 "Rotanhäntä"
As noted Finnish military mostly used same ammunition was used for antitank use in all 76.2 mm x 385R calibre field guns, but some of the details (such as muzzle velocities) varied from one gun model to another. 76 K/36 had the longest barrel from all 76.2-mm field guns used by the Finns, which is also quite evident in muzzle velocities produced by this gun with most available ammunition. Information about antitank-ammunition for this gun:

76 psav: Old (likely pre-WW2) solid-shot capped armour piercing round with 6,26 kg projectile and about 650 metres/sec muzzle velocity. This may have been old Russian ammunition captured in 1918, it is not listed in oldest Finnish ammunition manuals, but does appear in manuals introduced in 1941.
76 l vpstkr 23/29-ps MD-5: Captured Soviet round with BR-350 armour piercing high explosive ballistic capped tracer (APHE-T) projectile, which weight 6,4 kg projectile and had 677 m/sec muzzle velocity from this gun. Added to Finnish manuals 1st of May 1942 (probably captured earlier).
76 vpstkr 23/29-ps MD-5: Captured Soviet round with BR-350A armour piercing high explosive ballistic capped tracer projectile with ballistic cup (APHEBC-T). Projectile weight 6,4 kg projectile and 677 m/sec muzzle velocity from this gun. Added to Finnish manuals 1st of May 1942 (probably captured earlier).
76 pstkr 23/29-ps MD-5: Captured Soviet round with BR-350B armour piercing high explosive ballistic capped tracer projectile with ballistic tip (APHEBC-T). Projectile weight 6,4 kg projectile and 677 m/sec muzzle velocity from this gun. Added to Finnish manuals 1st of May 1942 (but almost certainly captured in 1941 or earlier).
76 psa - Vj4: Finnish armour piercing capped round with 4-second tracer (APC-T). Projectile weight 6,325 kg. Reduced propellant charge version had 403 m/sec muzzle velocity, while full propellant charge version achieved 695 m/sec. Added to Finnish manuals 1st of December 1942.
76 hkr 42-18/24-38: HEAT shell with German Gr. 38 Hl/B warhead. Projectile weight 4,8 kg and muzzle velocity 400 m/sec. Added to Finnish ammunition manuals 1th of July 1944, but may have arrived bit earlier.
76 hkr Vj 42/C-18/24-38: High explosive antitank tracer (HEAT-T) round with German Gr. 38 Hl/C warhead. Projectile weight 4,8 kg and muzzle velocity 400 m/sec. Added to Finnish ammunition manuals 1st of July 1944, but probably arrived few weeks earlier.
Finnish military also had incendiary ammunition for 76,2 mm x 385R calibre field guns. Both incendiary shells used by the Finns were captured Soviet equipment containing thermite and blackpowder.

As shown by test results 76 psa - Vj4 AP-T tracer round had much more armour penetration capability than previous AP and APHE rounds. This AP-T round was added to Finnish military manuals in 1st of December 1942 and with it 76 K/36 would have been effective weapon against Soviet T-34 tanks, even if it was very rarely used for antitank use. Until introduction of 75 PstK/40 (7.5 cm Pak 40) to Finnish inventory in May of 1943, this field gun and 76 ItK/31 ss and 76 ItK/31-40 ss anti-aircraft guns were armour-penetration wise most powerful guns in inventory of Finnish Army available for antitank-use. Finnish military also had incendiary ammunition for 76,2 mm x 385R calibre field guns. Both incendiary shells used by the Finns were captured Soviet equipment containing combination of thermite and blackpowder.
Last edited by Yoozername on 11 May 2018, 22:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#467

Post by Yoozername » 11 May 2018, 22:01

The finns produced their own AP projectile (76 psa - Vj4) for both the F-22 and the Soviet 76mm AAA cartridges

AAA performance

Finnish live fire testing year 1943 (76 psa - Vj4, Finnish APC-T, 828 m/sec, likely introduced 12/1942):

distance

hitting angle 70 deg
penetration

100 m 145 mm
200 m 145 mm
300 m 145 mm
400 m 140 mm
500 m 140 mm
600 m 135 mm
800 m 130 mm
1000 m 125 mm
1500 m 110 mm
2000 m 100 mm
2500 m 90 mm


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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#468

Post by Mobius » 12 May 2018, 02:56

Yoozername wrote:The finns produced their own AP projectile (76 psa - Vj4) for both the F-22 and the Soviet 76mm AAA cartridges
We need a look at this projectile.

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#469

Post by Yoozername » 12 May 2018, 03:26

Yes.

But, being tippy, I have a note...

Bad Quality ,has a Bad Quantity, beyond Qualification...Soviet WWII AP ammunition, not only sucked, it actually was dropped and post war, full bore-AP, were very much 'Pzgr 39'....

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#470

Post by Mobius » 12 May 2018, 04:48

They should of copied the Vj4. From the numbers it seems superior.
Ge test -76mm PaK36 Pzgr39 500 meters 89 mm pen at 30°.
US test - 76mm PaK36 Pzgr39 rot 500 yards 98 mm at 30°.
Fin test -76mm K/36 Vj4 500 meters 105 mm pen at 20°.

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#471

Post by Yoozername » 12 May 2018, 06:40

Yes, but is it homog, or FH or what???

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#472

Post by critical mass » 12 May 2018, 09:52

how was the 76mm pzgr39 rot penetration if fired from 828m/s?
This projectile was tested at much lower velocities, typically. Not sure it could negotiate higher velocities intactly

some test results of one bad and a good heat manufactured 1942 to compare (all conducted at 30° vs Krupp proof RHA plate). The heats were manufactured within the frame to improve Pzgr39 performance of research and development projects started 1941 going through 1942.


7.62cm Pzgr 39 rot
heat 8777, alloy composition for this heat: C:.51%, Mn:.56%, Si:1.01%, P:0.023%, S:0.011%, Ni: .35%, Cr:1.47%, V:0.14%
hardness: Rc61 nose, Rc59 core

shot#1
plate: 80mm
tensile strength: 110kg/mm²
velocity: 664.5m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#5
plate: 80mm
tensile strength: 110kg/mm²
velocity: 665.3m/s
projectile: Projectile broke just below fwd bourrolet, nose and base in one piece
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile unfit to burst

shot#2
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 735.8m/s
projectile: Projectile broke just below fwd bourrolet, nose and base in one piece
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile unfit to burst

shot#3
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 737.4m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#4
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 751.8m/s
projectile: Projectile broke just below fwd bourrolet, nose and base in one piece
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile unfit to burst

shot#6
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 753.6m/s
projectile: Projectile broke just below fwd bourrolet, nose and base in one piece
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile unfit to burst

shot#7
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 733.6m/s
projectile: Projectile broke just below fwd bourrolet, nose and base in one piece
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile unfit to burst

shot#8
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 743.6m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

--------

7.62cm Pzgr 39 rot

heat 8079, alloy composition for this heat: C:.49%, Mn:.36%, Si:1.22%, P:0.019%, S:0.014%, Ni: .58%, Cr:1.56%, V:0.12%
hardness: Rc61 nose, Rc59 core

shot#1
plate: 80mm
tensile strength: 110kg/mm²
velocity: 656.9m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#5
plate: 80mm
tensile strength: 110kg/mm²
velocity: -not determined
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#2
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 738.6m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#3
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 737.0m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#4
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 763.2m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#6
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 740.0m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#7
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 749.9m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

shot#8
plate: 100mm
tensile strength: 100kg/mm²
velocity: 747.4m/s
projectile: intact
plate: hole completely through, ca. cal. diameter
result: complete perforation, projectile fit to burst

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#473

Post by Mobius » 12 May 2018, 15:49

Yoozername wrote:Yes, but is it homog, or FH or what???
It is difficult to compare the Finn test penetration standard as no Finn tests of non-Finn shells are listed. Non-Finn shells firing tables on that site are from sources other than Finn. Though non-Finn firing tables on that site are of RHA so the author assumes it is homogeneous armor.

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#474

Post by Yoozername » 12 May 2018, 20:54

Mobius wrote:
Yoozername wrote:The finns produced their own AP projectile (76 psa - Vj4) for both the F-22 and the Soviet 76mm AAA cartridges
We need a look at this projectile.
Yeah, good luck on that. I found this...translate...the gun is a "Type: Light Field Potato"
http://www.waffenlager.net/arty/76k02_30.html

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#475

Post by Mobius » 12 May 2018, 20:59

Yoozername wrote:
Mobius wrote:
Yoozername wrote:The finns produced their own AP projectile (76 psa - Vj4) for both the F-22 and the Soviet 76mm AAA cartridges
We need a look at this projectile.
Yeah, good luck on that. I found this...translate...the gun is a "Type: Light Field Potato"
http://www.waffenlager.net/arty/76k02_30.html
I found this on tank.net.
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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#476

Post by seppw » 14 May 2018, 16:54

critical mass wrote:Soviet conclusions of the firing with 76mm AAA on TIGER side armor:
a) Бронебойный снаряд с дистанцин 500 метров не оте пробивает бортовую броню корпуса.
b) Металл Бронебойного снаряда имеет невысокие механические свойства.
translation:
a) Armor-piercing projectile fired from a distance of 500 meters does not penetrate the side armor of the hull.
b) The metal quality of the armor-piercing projectile has low mechanical properties.

Peter S. somehow made it up and in violation of the primary source claimed instead that "76mm penetrated the side armor" and "there is no evidence for poor metallurgic qualities of soviet domestic AP because it penetrates the Tiger side armor at elevated velocities".

As You might recognize, this is the exact opposite of the findings in the original prooving ground report. Further, the report is explicite in associating the failure to penetrate the TIGER side armor with 76mm AAA despite an, by 153m/s increased velocity (+23.1%, if compared to the 76mm F-34 used there), to the fact that the matallurgic quality of the projectile was not up to the task.
Sorry for derailing, but wasn't the Tigers side armor hardened or just face-hardened?

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#477

Post by critical mass » 14 May 2018, 17:47

TIGER side armor was RHA. It had homogenious hardness characteristics ftting to 80mm thick plate at 1st ductile/brittle transition range, i.e. BHN 260/70 to 310/20. It was not face hardened nor high hardness type.
This type of armor is of optimum ballistic resistence against rigid, non deforming, capped AP projectiles. It´s not coincidence that the soviets adopted the same hardness range for similarely thick side hull RHA armor of their T54/T55 series post war, when they also introduced their new rigid,non-deforming capped AP series (Br-367, Br-412D, Br-472D), which in their own was heavily based upon the wartime german Pzgr39 series.

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#478

Post by seppw » 14 May 2018, 18:14

critical mass wrote:TIGER side armor was RHA. It had homogenious hardness characteristics ftting to 80mm thick plate at 1st ductile/brittle transition range, i.e. BHN 260/70 to 310/20. It was not face hardened nor high hardness type.
This type of armor is of optimum ballistic resistence against rigid, non deforming, capped AP projectiles. It´s not coincidence that the soviets adopted the same hardness range for similarely thick side hull RHA armor of their T54/T55 series post war, when they also introduced their new rigid,non-deforming capped AP series (v), which in their own was heavily based upon the wartime german Pzgr39 series.
Interesting. I read that the Brits rated the side armor ~95mm RHA although it was "only" 82mm thick, but that was just an excerpt from a book and it was about 10 years ago. I rather believe you than some secondary source which i can't find anymore.
Perhaps they tested a low number of mk8 shells from a mk3 6pdr which has a nominal penetration of 92mm@100m(VC50) and the shells happened to break a little earlier than usual and therefore failed to penetrate.

When you say Br-367, Br-412D & Br-472D were based opon the wartime german Pzgr39, do you mean metal composition, shape or both?

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#479

Post by critical mass » 14 May 2018, 19:11

The hardnessof the Tunesian TIGER captured and checked by portable Poldi hardness measurement devices was in congruence with the specifications I.T.80E of MQ armor. Quality of armor was good (little to no cracking, but then again, tests were conducted with rigid, non-deforming, capped AP, which typically leave less traces of cracking under attack where the projectile stays intact). The velocities are somehow higher than what 6pdr APCBC and 17pdr APCBC range tables vs british MQ armor suggests, but I´d be careful jumping to conclusions, it´s just one systematic trial.

Soviet AP in the early 1950´s saw the advent of APCBC-HE types, which had not been fielded during ww2. The little information I have about hardness seem to conform with Pzgr39 data quite closely. The shape by all intents, too, appears as a fair job in reverse engeneering effort. Notice that the ww2 tried and unique, domestic soviet blunt nosed APBC shape was discontinued and abandoned in favour of a moderately pointed nose shape. The nose shape is quite like wartime german projectile noses. Notice that the length of the projectile body, sans nose coverings, is also much shorter than the old APBC types, which entails measureable benefits under conditions of obliquity impact. Unlike the Pzgr39 the soviet new series APCBC have a much smaller central maplet of the windscreen (making them pointier) but other details appear to be very heavily influenced by Pzgr39 (from nose to bottom):

[+]The windscreen is attached to the AP-cap but not anymore to the projectile body.
[+]the contour of the windscreen is changed from wartime domestic tangent ogive to a secant contour, which is specific to Pzgr39 series (notice US and UK APCBC used a conventional tangent ogive or moderate secant ogive, but no straight secant)
[+]cap shape and %weight are similar to german Army type Pzgr39 caps but different to other APCBC designs.
[+]The wartime soviet domestic AP initially was plain but then was improved by very pronouned, and deeply cut grooves into the projectile body as stress risers (to localize projectile break up).For the post war ammo, and similar to the Pzgr39, they again got rid of these grooves, which serve only to trigger early break up
[+]Wartime soviet domestic AP had boat tail characteristics and relatively high positioned driving bands, quite unlike german Pzgr39 and, You guess it, Br-367/-412D/-472D...
[+]cavity is similarely shaped to Pzgr39 series.

edit: I have added a graph for comparison, it would be more directly comparable but I don´t have a drawing of the rare german 10cm Pzgr43 aequivalent, so I substituted the 7.5cm Pzgr39 with Army type cap, instead and scaled it to relative size (correcting for flatter maplet in 7.5cm Pzgr39).
Attachments
sovietap.jpg

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Re: 7,5 cm Kwk/StuK/Pak 40 Firing Table Data

#480

Post by whelm » 26 May 2018, 22:43

Grant 75mm Ammunition.
The moment it was discovered that the SAP ammunition was arriving with 23 oz. charges, stops were taken by S.D.5. and O.S. to break down the rounds and make the charge up to 32 oz.

Even with this charge, the performance of the SAP against the front of the reinforced Pz.Kw.III was extremely disappointing, and urgent demands were made for the US to supply some samples of M61 APCBC.

When the M61 arrived, it proved extremely satisfactory, but in the meanwhile S.D.5. and O.S. arranged the trail of a composite round consisting of an American cartridge case and the German 75mm Kwk APCBCHE projectile. This ammunition was also very satisfactory both in regards accuracy and penetration; it gave at first a little trouble with coppering which was cured with tinfoil, and later was found to suffer from mal-ejection, which disappeared when a more recent pattern of cartridge case, designed for 32 ozs. charge, was used.

The O.S. have enterprisingly undertaken to convert 15,000 rounds of this ammunition in an incredibly short time period, and it believed that 50% of this has already been delivered to users.

This will be the only fully effective 75mm AP ammunition available for use by our Grant tanks until we begin to receive bulk supplies of M61 and its value to us at this present moment in time is beyond price.
This would have the German round traveling at roughly the same speed as the M61 with that 32 oz charge, 2030 fps




In 1943 the British/Canadians have the 75mm short gun as having a MV of 1300-1350 fps one chart has a 14.81 lb round and the other a 15 lb round. The 15 lb round is listed as having the large capacity - monobloc, the 14.81 is not listed capacity wise either way.

1943 they also have the 14.81 lb round firing at 2400 fps from the Kwk 40 you can find charts comparing both velocities and the performance difference from 1350 to 2400 for the two weapons.

1944 and on they start listing it as the small capacity at 15 lbs


So what version was the 14.81 lb round? anyone know the exact date it was introduced? It may be possible the Grant converted ammo was in fact that 14.81 lb stuff and not the large cap 15 lb rounds. This was all done around the period the Kwk 40 was showing up on Panzer IV's in Africa.

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