76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 452
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Miles Krogfus » 11 Apr 2016 21:54

H.Dv. 119/327 edition dated October 1944:
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV with velocities at range and official 30 degree deflection performance figures.
100 meters 699 m/s 96 mm pen. 300 meters 678 m/s 92 mm pen. 500 meters 658 m/s 89 mm pen. 1000 meters 607 m/s 80 mm pen. 1500 meters 559 m/s 71 mm pen. 2000 meters 514 m/s 63 mm pen. 2500 meters 472 m/s 55 mm pen. 3000 meters 433 m/s 48 mm pen.
Treffer % firing at 2.5/2 meter target with 50% St. breite/hohe: 100 m 100(100)% .1/.1, 300 m 100(100)% .2/.2, 500 m 100(92)% .3/.4, 1000 m 90(52)% .6/.8, 1500 m 66(25)% 1.0/1.3, 2000 m 42(12)% 1.4/1.8, 2500 m 26(07)% 1.9/2.5, 3000 meters 17(05)% 2.4/3.3.
The towed Pak 36 arrived in Africa during 1942: Jan 44, Feb 11, March 7, April 52, July 4, Sept 6. Total to November 124.

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3460
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by David W » 13 Apr 2016 07:03

Miles, that is superb, thank you!

May I ask where you got the arrival figures for North Africa?

Kind Regards,
David.

Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 3087
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 13 Apr 2016 09:04

Miles, are you sure that the guns were Pak36(r) and not the unmodified artillery version the FK 296(r). There is a lot of photographic evidence for that gun being in Africa in 1942 and none of the Pak 36(r) until Tunisia.
Alan

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 452
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Miles Krogfus » 13 Apr 2016 18:37

Alan, the arrival figures are as you state, originally for the FK 296(r) and David, taken from DAK records at the NARA supplied over forty years ago by Tom Jentz. The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben. The British Ordnance Board Critical Velocity graph quoted by F.M. von Senger u. Etterlin, with 7.54 Kg wt. and 740 m/s muzzle velocity are for guns captured in Africa with pen of 0 and 30 degrees deflection (vs. BRITISH armor plate) of 133/108 mm at 0 YARDS, and 78/64 mm at 2500 YARDS.
The 7.62 cm Panzergranatpatrone 39 rot projectile at +10 degrees C Flugbahnbild shows that if a gunner aims directly to 800 meters range at a 2.5 meter high target, it could be hit from c. 0 to 750 meters, direct aim to 1000 m hit from c. 720 to 950 meters, 1600 m aim hit from c. 1480 to 1580 meters, 2000 m aim hit from c. 1920 to 1980 meters, 2600 m aim hit from c. 2550 to 2590 meters, aim 3000 m hit from c. 2960 to 2990 meters.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 14 Apr 2016 05:30, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3460
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by David W » 13 Apr 2016 19:29

Thanks Miles

Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 3087
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 14 Apr 2016 16:03

Thanks for clearing that up .
Alan

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jul 2016 21:27

Miles Krogfus wrote: The 7.62 cm Panzergranatpatrone 39 rot projectile at +10 degrees C Flugbahnbild shows that if a gunner aims directly to 800 meters range at a 2.5 meter high target, it could be hit from c. 0 to 750 meters, direct aim to 1000 m hit from c. 720 to 950 meters, 1600 m aim hit from c. 1480 to 1580 meters, 2000 m aim hit from c. 1920 to 1980 meters, 2600 m aim hit from c. 2550 to 2590 meters, aim 3000 m hit from c. 2960 to 2990 meters.
You seem to imply a very flat trajectory. But if I aim at a 2.5 m tall target at 800 m, and set the range to 800 meters, I would expect that I would also hit the target at 800 meters? Also beyond that range a bit (why 0-750m?).

Many German AT units report this range technique. Basically just adjusting for 'zones'. Especially ATG on defense.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Yoozername » 27 Jul 2016 16:32

I think there may be a bit of confusion here.

The Germans captured the F-22 76.2 mm Soviet weapons and initially used the Soviet ammunition. They may have also manufactured a copy of this same ammunition, that is what I take " The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben." to mean. The Germans may have used an improved projectile?

But the Germans also did a 'refurb' on these weapons since they had excellent AP potential. The Soviets sort of hamstrung this weapon by insisting it use the common 76.2 ammunition with its small charge.

The Germans modified the breech and initial rifling point in the barrel so that a German designed Pzgr 39 rot projectile, which weighed more than the Soviet 76.2 mm projectile, could have 2.6 Kg of powder behind it. This weapon, and its corresponding Marder application, is the Pak 36 (r),

The same ammunition is then used for converted FK 39 (USV conversions). There is evidence that the powder was reduced to 2.45 Kg as far as a document from April 1944. These weapons did have some issues with the extractors. This may have been the reason.

Costas-63
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 27 Nov 2013 19:37

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Costas-63 » 28 Jul 2016 23:50

Yoozername wrote:...
The Germans modified the breech and initial rifling point in the barrel so that a German designed Pzgr 39 rot projectile, which weighed more than the Soviet 76.2 mm projectile, could have 2.6 Kg of powder behind it. This weapon, and its corresponding Marder application, is the Pak 36 (r),
...
This weapon is the "7,62 cm Panzerjägerkanone 36" or "7,62 cm Pak. 36" - without (r)
338896a.jpg
338842a.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 13576
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 28 Jul 2016 23:56

Costas-63 wrote:This weapon is the "7,62 cm Panzerjägerkanone 36" or "7,62 cm Pak. 36" - without (r)
And it's Pak without the period.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Yoozername » 29 Jul 2016 03:36

Is that the Possessive pronoun?

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 13576
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 29 Jul 2016 10:34

Yoozername wrote:Is that the Possessive pronoun?
While I agree that there's no nazi like a grammar nazi, I think you need to elaborate a bit :)

Denniss
Member
Posts: 270
Joined: 26 Nov 2004 02:52
Location: Germany

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Denniss » 29 Jul 2016 15:08

Was the (r) ever used on this gun or did they simply drop it later on?
With all the modifications done to the original soviet gun it probably never had the (r) designation.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Yoozername » 29 Jul 2016 17:12

I suppose that the 'ownership' was considered German after extensive rework and ammunition manufacture. Possibly, this also explains the FK 39 designation for the reworked USV 76.2mm weapon. It also helped changing to 'FK" since Pak 39 refers to the 7,5 cm L48 weapon of the Hetzer and JgdPzr IV.

But, again, I believe the Germans did manufacture its (possessive pronoun) own 'stock' version of the Soviet 76.2 mm ammunition, and also a longer version to use in the reworked Pak 36. I will have to search but there is a side by side picture of the German and Soviet 'stock' ammunition somewhere. Most people are familiar with the German 7.62 cm Pzgr 39 rot used along with the Pak 40 cartridge case.

So...this...
The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben.
...refers to the standard Soviet ammunition and its German counterpart (what projectile?)...while this...
The British Ordnance Board Critical Velocity graph quoted by F.M. von Senger u. Etterlin, with 7.54 Kg wt. and 740 m/s muzzle velocity are for guns captured in Africa with pen of 0 and 30 degrees deflection (vs. BRITISH armor plate) of 133/108 mm at 0 YARDS, and 78/64 mm at 2500 YARDS.
...actually refers to the German modified Pak 36 with the initial 2.6 Kg of propellant.

This...
H.Dv. 119/327 edition dated October 1944:
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV with velocities at range and official 30 degree deflection performance figures.
100 meters 699 m/s 96 mm pen.
300 meters 678 m/s 92 mm pen.
500 meters 658 m/s 89 mm pen.
1000 meters 607 m/s 80 mm pen.
1500 meters 559 m/s 71 mm pen.
2000 meters 514 m/s 63 mm pen.
2500 meters 472 m/s 55 mm pen.
3000 meters 433 m/s 48 mm pen.
Treffer % firing at 2.5/2 meter target with 50% St. breite/hohe: 100 m 100(100)% .1/.1, 300 m 100(100)% .2/.2, 500 m 100(92)% .3/.4, 1000 m 90(52)% .6/.8, 1500 m 66(25)% 1.0/1.3, 2000 m 42(12)% 1.4/1.8, 2500 m 26(07)% 1.9/2.5, 3000 meters 17(05)% 2.4/3.3.
...refers to the later cartridge given in Merkblatt 28/1 from April 1944. That is, a reduced charge of 2.45 Kg and this ammunition is common to both the Pak 36 and the FK 39 (aka Pak 39 (r)).

Also, this...
TM-E 30-451 (Handbook on German Military Forces (War Department) 1 March 1945:

page VII-35

i. 3-inch Antitank Gun (7.62 cm Pak 39).

(1) General Description. This 3-inch antitank gun is a modified version of the Russian field gun 7.62 cm F.K. 297 (r). the chamber is bored out, and a 7.62 Pak 36 muzzle brake is fitted. The breech mechanism is semiautomatic with a vertical sliding block. The mount has box-type trails and pneumatic tires.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber 76.2mm (3 inches)
Length of tube 11 feet 5 inches
Weight in Action 3,360 pounds
Muzzle Velocity 2,230 feet per second
Traverse 57 degrees
Elevation -6 deg to +45 deg
Traction Motor-drawn

(3) Ammunition. This gun fires the same ammunition as the 7.62 Pak 36 (r), but has somewhat lower performance.
Seems to confirm that both modified guns are using the same ammunition, and also both have a lower velocity than previous tests. The Pak 36 is often quoted as having 740 M/s but later it is 710 M/s.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data

Post by Yoozername » 29 Jul 2016 17:31

Lately, I have actually been wondering about the "L" designation and what it physically means. In the case of the Soviet F-22 barrel, it is often referred to as 'L51'. In the case of the German Pak 36, it may be called something else. L54.8 (according to the Marder pic above). Now, there must be something dimensionally askew since the Germans actually rebored the chamber, and also had to have bored out some rifling since the Pzgr 39 rot round was something like a foot longer than the Soviet round. So, I suspect that the German L54.8 is the length from the back of the cartridge case to the end of the barrel (not muzzle brake).

This comes up in many other discussions regarding different nationalities and how they are doing this measurement.

Also, is there any information regarding the ZIS-3 weapon being used as anything but a captured weapon by the Germans? Also, did the Soviets have a longer barrel on the ZIS-3 than the USV? The F-22 certainly was a long barreled weapon and the Germans really had a great stop-gap weapon (Pak 36) and even produced Tungsten Carbide ammunition for it in some quantities.

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”