If it was, it wasn't in any of the original documents I've seen. Except possibly for clerical errors, I doubt that (r) was ever used.Denniss wrote:Was the (r) ever used on this gun or did they simply drop it later on?
With all the modifications done to the original soviet gun it probably never had the (r) designation.
76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Very unlikely they accounted for the muzzle brake in their length figure.
I'm no expert on soviet guns but what I've read so far sound like ZiS-3 had the F-22USV barrel on a simpler carriage. Maybe with some other simplifications to ease mass production.
I'm no expert on soviet guns but what I've read so far sound like ZiS-3 had the F-22USV barrel on a simpler carriage. Maybe with some other simplifications to ease mass production.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
This is what Wiki states is the dimensions...
7,62 cm Pak 36
Barrel length
Bore: 3.68 m (12 ft 1 in) L/48.4
Overall: 3.895 m (12 ft 9 in) L/51.2
(without muzzle brake)
7,62 cm Pak 36
Barrel length
Bore: 3.68 m (12 ft 1 in) L/48.4
Overall: 3.895 m (12 ft 9 in) L/51.2
(without muzzle brake)
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
"Gesamtlange des Rohres " given by Germans in Firing Tables: Russian 76.2 mm gun 02/30 L 40 (Feldkanone 295/2 (r)): 3048 mm, F-22 USV (FK 297 (r)) and ZIS-3 (FK 288 (r)): 3200 mm, F-22 (FK 296 (r)): 3810 mm.
The British fire tested at 740 m/s mv German Pzgr 39 rot using Russian propellant, the 710 m/s German Firing Table MV is with German propellant, that depending on the +/- amount when loading it, gave a 710 to 720 m/s mv.
The British fire tested at 740 m/s mv German Pzgr 39 rot using Russian propellant, the 710 m/s German Firing Table MV is with German propellant, that depending on the +/- amount when loading it, gave a 710 to 720 m/s mv.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
I really doubt that the Germans adapted a F-22 gun to fire a German 7,62cm Pzgr 39 rot and would use Soviet propellant. The Germans adapted the F-22 (long barrel) to take the 7,62cm Pzgr 39 rot combined with the Pak 40 cartridge case. They would load it with German propellant. German documents support this. Again, it seems the Germans made this ammunition for both the F-22 and early USV weapons captured from the Soviets (that is, they modified both weapons by boring out the chamber and also a bit of the rifling). It is listed as stocks this way. There is data that shows they had reduced the propellant loading later.The British fire tested at 740 m/s mv German Pzgr 39 rot using Russian propellant, the 710 m/s German Firing Table MV is with German propellant, that depending on the +/- amount when loading it, gave a 710 to 720 m/s mv.
So, my point is that the early conversions would have the 740 M/s for the 7,62cm Pak 36 (converted F-22) and it would later be lower with the reduced loading ammunition as shown in April 1944 documentation. The British test fired a Pak 36 with the early German ammunition.
The Germans also used these weapons, and later captured ZIS-3 "as-is" and used captured ammunition stocks and also produced a copy. I would be interested in knowing what AP round they would have used. This combination, either using captured ammo or German copies, would have a velocity below 700 M/s and close to the actual Soviet velocities. The Soviet 7,62cm projectiles were lighter than most German 7,62 cm projectiles.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
As I state above, the barrel lengths I give come from different firing tables for various Russian 76.2 mm guns. No firing table for the Pak 36 gives any MV except 710 m/s. The 740 m/s MV figure given in different publications are all based on the British Ordnance Board's performance graph, not any German source. I do not discuss illustrations of other projectiles in these tables, the data regarding their muzzle velocities or types and amounts of the propellants of F-22 rounds or . . . or . . . The Pak 36 firing table only shows the German Pzgr 39 rot being used, no Russian AP projectile is mentioned.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 12 Aug 2016, 21:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
From H. Dv. 481/85 June 1942, note that the German 7,62 cm Pak 36, is the captured Soviet F-22 with the long barrel. It is modified by the Germans to use a German designed Pzgr 39 rot and also the Pak 40 'brass' 6340 St. and German propellant weighing 2.6 Kg. The Germans bored out the breech and evidently the barrel rifling (a bit) since the overall length of the round is longer than the original Soviet ammunition. The weapon would not be able to fire Soviet ammunition. Most sources state that this early ammunition had a muzzle velocity of 740 M/s. Given its heavier Pzgr 39 rot, it was a very good antitank gun for this period and the Germans certainly used it to good effect and also did manufacture Tungsten Carbide ammunition for it in some numbers before the ban.
The Germans also captured F-22USV and did a similar conversion. This is called the 7,62cm Pak 39 or F.K. 39. It had a shorter barrel but it also fired the same German ammunition as the converted 7,62 cm Pak 36. It had a lower muzzle velocity though, and really was more an artillery piece with some amount of AT ability.
The Germans also used the Soviet weapons in 'stock' form with Soviet ammunition. There may have also been a German 'copy' of this. This is what this data is saying...
The Germans also captured F-22USV and did a similar conversion. This is called the 7,62cm Pak 39 or F.K. 39. It had a shorter barrel but it also fired the same German ammunition as the converted 7,62 cm Pak 36. It had a lower muzzle velocity though, and really was more an artillery piece with some amount of AT ability.
The Germans also used the Soviet weapons in 'stock' form with Soviet ammunition. There may have also been a German 'copy' of this. This is what this data is saying...
I would like to know if they also changed the projectile to a Pzgr 39 rot also?The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Here we have the April 1944 document concerned with German explosive contents of ammunition. Note that the Pak 36 and FK 39 are listed together but the amount of powder in the Pzgr 39 rot ammunition has been reduced from 2.6 Kg to 2.45 Kg.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
So, the question is if the Germans H.Dv. 119/327 edition dated October 1944:
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV
Then, what was the velocity initially? That is, with a 2.6 Kg powder weight?
Also, there is no way for the British to test a Pak 36 with Soviet propellant.
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV
Then, what was the velocity initially? That is, with a 2.6 Kg powder weight?
Also, there is no way for the British to test a Pak 36 with Soviet propellant.
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
But given the fact that they first encountered the Pak 36 in Africa maybe some testing was made in that theater (high ambient temperatures tend to lead to high muzzle velocities) and/or with captured "Für Tropen" ammunition; c.f. screenshot below from War Office Handbook of Enemy Ammunition, Pamphlet 14: German Rocket, Gun and Mortar Ammunition.Yoozername wrote:Also, there is no way for the British to test a Pak 36 with Soviet propellant.
Markus
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Actually, no, but good data. 'Fur Tropen' is a reduced charge from the normal charge. So, for the normal charge of 2.6 Kg, the 'Fur Tropen' version is reduced to 2.48 Kg. So, if tested in that theatre, that is the theatre it is for.
It appears that in 1944, the normal charge was reduced. It may be due to some other reason like issues with the ejection, etc. By that time, these weapons would have been second-stringers.
There is also a 'Fur Tropen' Pak 40 ammunition that was also captured. The 'Fur Tropen' ammunition actually had a charge of on 2.16 Kg. Since 'normal' loading was 2.43 Kg (later increased to 2.5 Kg), it may have led to false testing results if shipped out of theatre. I have not read of 'Fur Tropen' ammunition being used in any other theatre BTW.
Apparently, it was reduced 6% in both cases.
It appears that in 1944, the normal charge was reduced. It may be due to some other reason like issues with the ejection, etc. By that time, these weapons would have been second-stringers.
There is also a 'Fur Tropen' Pak 40 ammunition that was also captured. The 'Fur Tropen' ammunition actually had a charge of on 2.16 Kg. Since 'normal' loading was 2.43 Kg (later increased to 2.5 Kg), it may have led to false testing results if shipped out of theatre. I have not read of 'Fur Tropen' ammunition being used in any other theatre BTW.
Apparently, it was reduced 6% in both cases.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
H.Dv.119/117 Vorlaufige Schusstafel for the Soviet FK 296(r) May 1942 gives these MV of projectiles with 1080 grams of Russian 9/7 propellant: Sprenggranatpatrone 284 and Stahlgussgranpatrone 287 of 706 m/s, while 1943 H.Dv.119/3121 Vorlaufige Geschutzfuhrertafel for the FK 296(r) und Selbstfabrlafette states 713 m/s. The 1942 figure for the Russian APBC BR 350 is 687 m/s, the 1943 MV for the model BR 350 A is 698 m/s, using the same 1080 grams amount of 9/7 propellant. No German Pzgr figures given in the 1942 FT. For 1943: Pzgr Patr 39(r) MV of 660 m/s, Pzgr Patr 39 rot(r) MV of 630 m/s, Pzgr 40(r) of 850 m/s. The Pzgr projectile mentioned earlier, with 1145 grams of 9/7 propellant had on its case:
Fur Tropen!
PT=+25 (degrees) C
Fur Tropen!
PT=+25 (degrees) C
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Thanks, that is great information.
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
According to Waffen-Revue the Überblick über den Stand der Entwicklungen beim Heer from August 1942 gives the V0 of the main weapon of Pz. Sfl. 2 für 7,62-cm-Pak 36, Sd. Kfz 132 at 740 m/s with Panzergranate 39 rot and 920 m/s with Panzergranate 40 [WR 86 p. 88]. The same numbers are given in the document for 7,62-cm-Pak 36 auf 5 t Zgkw "Diana" [WR 87 p. 146] although actually the small production run seems to have sported the 7,62-cm-F.K. 296 (r). E.g. US Intelligence Bulletins long quoted a figure of 2200 fps for the Pak 36 AP shell in conjunction with the Diana.
OTOH Handbuch für Waffen, Geräte und Kraftfahrzeuge from 1.1.1944 gives the V0 at 720 m/s for Pzgr. 39 rot [WR 86 p. 72].
BTW Anyone happen to know firing data for the 7,1 kg 7,62 cm PzGr. 39; Drawing below from Geschoßringbuch.
Markus
OTOH Handbuch für Waffen, Geräte und Kraftfahrzeuge from 1.1.1944 gives the V0 at 720 m/s for Pzgr. 39 rot [WR 86 p. 72].
BTW Anyone happen to know firing data for the 7,1 kg 7,62 cm PzGr. 39; Drawing below from Geschoßringbuch.
Markus
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Yes, that is the large HE version of the Pzgr 39 I mentioned before. I believe it to be this from Miles post...
Here is the rot version. Note it is heavier than the large HE version.
I believe there is a side by side picture at one of the ammo collector sites that shows both the captured Soviet 'stock' version next to the German manufactured version. I will have to try and find it, or my password since they don't let you see without it. Note, of course, that these are being used in the captured guns without modifications. That is, not the early long barrel F-22 modified by the Germans to use German ammunition only (Pak 40 case with Pzgr 39 rot small charge HE).For 1943: Pzgr Patr 39(r) MV of 660 m/s,
Here is the rot version. Note it is heavier than the large HE version.