76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Thanks,
Guess the 7,62 cm Pzgr. 39 in Geschoßringbuch is a German-built version since they dropped the (r).
Markus
Guess the 7,62 cm Pzgr. 39 in Geschoßringbuch is a German-built version since they dropped the (r).
Markus
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Probably not in official nomenclature but e.g. on 11.5.1942 the War Diary of Organisations-Abteilung III des OKW includes the following:Denniss wrote:Was the (r) ever used on this gun or did they simply drop it later on?
With all the modifications done to the original soviet gun it probably never had the (r) designation.
[Waffen-Revue 84, p.9]2. 7,62-cm-Pak (r) (russische Beutekanone, die die durch Aufbohren des Ladungsraumes und Schaffung einer deutschen Pz.-Granate zur schweren Pak umgearbeitet wurde).
Markus
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Re: Potentially 7,62 cm F.K. 296 (r) compatible AP ammunition apparently the Germans also listed a Soviet version with increased charge. See pic below from "Ratsch-Bumm" Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-75 by Wolfgang Fleischer.
Markus
Markus
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
See my comments about the UBR 354 C (English UBR 354 S) posted in October 2015: "Soviet UBR 354 S Special APBC for the ZIS-3)".
Differences between Projectile, Propellant and Cartridge production dates were common for Soviet factories. Examples: 45 mm BR 240 APBC projectile from factory 34 lot 1121 dated 1950 fitted on a 1950 cartridge containing 7/7 CB propellant in a bag loaded 1938. 57 mm BR 271 APBC projectile produced May 1940 loaded on propellant 12/7 bagged April 1941 in a cartridge dated October 1941. 76.2 mm BR 350 B projectile heated in 1948, with propellant 9/7 lot 60 factory K bagged 1946, placed in a 1949 cartridge, lot 63 of factory 29. 85 mm BR UBR 365 K APBC projectile dated 1949 with propellant 14/7 bagged 1945, on a 1947 cartridge of factory 29. Other Russian Projectiles that I have studied produced from the mid 1930's through the Korean War to the 1960's show similar differences. Some projectile bodies were not originally shaped at all, but first merely heated by one factory and then sent unfinished to another factory with adequate machines to grind off the excess metal, and thus do the projectile bodywork. Heating and finishing dates then would also differ.
Differences between Projectile, Propellant and Cartridge production dates were common for Soviet factories. Examples: 45 mm BR 240 APBC projectile from factory 34 lot 1121 dated 1950 fitted on a 1950 cartridge containing 7/7 CB propellant in a bag loaded 1938. 57 mm BR 271 APBC projectile produced May 1940 loaded on propellant 12/7 bagged April 1941 in a cartridge dated October 1941. 76.2 mm BR 350 B projectile heated in 1948, with propellant 9/7 lot 60 factory K bagged 1946, placed in a 1949 cartridge, lot 63 of factory 29. 85 mm BR UBR 365 K APBC projectile dated 1949 with propellant 14/7 bagged 1945, on a 1947 cartridge of factory 29. Other Russian Projectiles that I have studied produced from the mid 1930's through the Korean War to the 1960's show similar differences. Some projectile bodies were not originally shaped at all, but first merely heated by one factory and then sent unfinished to another factory with adequate machines to grind off the excess metal, and thus do the projectile bodywork. Heating and finishing dates then would also differ.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 18 Aug 2016, 05:53, edited 10 times in total.
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
If the 10-41 date on the UBR-354S pic is representative I guess the special ammunition had to wait for ZiS-3 production to catch up.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
As an example of World War II Russian projectile production, the Krivoschtschekinsk Combine 179 in Novosibirsk produced 45 and 76.2 mm APBC. Barstock sent from the Kusnesk Combine in Stalinsk was heat treated by two electric and four other furnaces, quenched, hollowed by 300 boring machines, then machined to specifications on Skoda lathes in building 29 of Krivoschtschekinsk's Factory 1. Then it was HE loaded and fused in building 22 Factory 2.
Also some Kusnesk 76.2 mm bar stock was sent to Barnaul Factory 17, cut and ogive machined, then sent as AP shot to Combine 179 for finishing.
After the German invasion, three other ammo factories were evacuated to Combine 179, expanding its workers from 10,00 to almost 30,000. Work hours were changed from three 8 hour shifts to two 12 hour ones. As the war continued, women and children (age 15-17 years) took over more of the worker population.
Also some Kusnesk 76.2 mm bar stock was sent to Barnaul Factory 17, cut and ogive machined, then sent as AP shot to Combine 179 for finishing.
After the German invasion, three other ammo factories were evacuated to Combine 179, expanding its workers from 10,00 to almost 30,000. Work hours were changed from three 8 hour shifts to two 12 hour ones. As the war continued, women and children (age 15-17 years) took over more of the worker population.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
It's very interesting that the Germans also had '(r)' designations for the ammunition also. Clearly, these are captured Soviet cartridges. And given the date codes on them, they were pre-war, or would have been in use by the F-22 and USV field pieces. I suspect that the F-22, with its longer barrel, got more out of this also. The 'hot' cartridge has about a third more weight of propellant.peeved wrote:Re: Potentially 7,62 cm F.K. 296 (r) compatible AP ammunition apparently the Germans also listed a Soviet version with increased charge. See pic below from "Ratsch-Bumm" Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-75 by Wolfgang Fleischer.
Markus
Edit:
So, these are two different weights?The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
A drawing showing a German projectile (7,62 cm Pzgr 40) on a Soviet sized 'brass' and loaded with German propellant.
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Is there a firing table for the HE round? O-350.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Used with the German 76.2 mm Pak 36, Sprenggranatpatrone 39 had a MV of 550 m/s, 500 m/s at 500 meters (0/0), 455 m/s at 1000 meters (.6/.7), 379 m/s at 2000 meters (1.5/2.2), 328 m/s at 3000 meters (2.7/4.8), 297 m/s at 4000 meters (4.1/8.8), 279 at 5000 meters (5.6/15), 267m/s at 6000 meters (7.4/23). I list 50%ige Streuung nach der: Breite/Hohe in meters (--).
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Yes. But in some docs the Pak. with period exists:Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:And it's Pak without the period.Costas-63 wrote:This weapon is the "7,62 cm Panzerjägerkanone 36" or "7,62 cm Pak. 36" - without (r)
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
I found that I had this Firing Table. It fills in gaps in Miles' data.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Some penetration data...
"Then the experiences made with the 7.62 cm Pak 36 (r) when firing against a Russian tank type KW I ( reinforced ).
Signed: Radowski
Oberstleutnant and commander of the battalion.
Canon Ammunition Distance Armor Angle Reach Effects
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 350 m Middle zone of the upper side of the chassis, 10 cm 70 ° one Clean drilling Ø 10 cm
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 350 m Side of the turret, 10 cm 45 one Dents 20 cm long and 3 cm wide
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 150 m Bottom zone of the front plate, 10 cm 70 ° one
Clean drilling, the grenade went through the interior and the engine until reaching the rear armor. The entire vehicle vibrated after being hit by the projectile. Orifice diameter 11,5 cm"
"Then the experiences made with the 7.62 cm Pak 36 (r) when firing against a Russian tank type KW I ( reinforced ).
Signed: Radowski
Oberstleutnant and commander of the battalion.
Canon Ammunition Distance Armor Angle Reach Effects
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 350 m Middle zone of the upper side of the chassis, 10 cm 70 ° one Clean drilling Ø 10 cm
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 350 m Side of the turret, 10 cm 45 one Dents 20 cm long and 3 cm wide
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 150 m Bottom zone of the front plate, 10 cm 70 ° one
Clean drilling, the grenade went through the interior and the engine until reaching the rear armor. The entire vehicle vibrated after being hit by the projectile. Orifice diameter 11,5 cm"
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
What´s the source of this information?
KW1 used rather soft RHA armor (very different to T34!). This shows also by the rather small holing diameter. The applique armor increases the effective thickness somehow, though by how much is open to debate.
The Pzgr39-1 (shouldn´t it be Pzgr.39 rot for the 7.62cm?) could defeat it at 20° and 350m but not at 45°.
KW1 used rather soft RHA armor (very different to T34!). This shows also by the rather small holing diameter. The applique armor increases the effective thickness somehow, though by how much is open to debate.
The Pzgr39-1 (shouldn´t it be Pzgr.39 rot for the 7.62cm?) could defeat it at 20° and 350m but not at 45°.
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Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
I can PM German report.Panzerjägerabteilung 53
Abt. Ia / 42
About : Telegram of the 5. Panzer-Division, Atb. Ia
Subject : Short report on experiences with the 7.62 cm Pak (r) on Pz.Sfl.2
It is a chart, the 1 means '1 shot', so they mean PzGr 39, and maybe it should be rot, but I do recall from the 'Ringbuch' that there was a design with a large cavity? See this thread post #29!
So, to translate...
Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm Pz.Gr.39 1 shot 350 m Side of the turret, 10 cm 45 one Dents 20 cm long and 3 cm wide
Means Weapon: Sfl. Pak (r) 7.62 cm, Ammunition: Pz.Gr.39, 1 shot, Location/thickness: Side of the turret/ 10 cm, Angle:45, Results: onexDents 20 cm long and 3 cm wide
Given the angle, one could assume obliquity is being taken into account, and it is a gouge and ricochet.
An interesting observation in this and other reports, regarding many SP and even towed weapons, is that the zero on the guns is lost unless there is a strong means of clamping the barrel down (travel lock).