Panther losses at Norrey en Bessin 9 June 1944.

[Michael Kenny]

Norbert Szamveber has a book 'Waffen SS Armour In Normandy dealing with 12th SS which is 'based on their original war diaries'

The relevant pages:

9 June 1944
1/SS-Panzer Regiment 12 (command post: Le Bourg):
Attack of the l.Kompanie towards Norrey [-en-Bessin] at 1200 hours. From a position
hidden behind a slope, all tank guns opened fire at the church steeple, because it was
probable that an artillery spotter was placed there. They had driven with the utmost
speed towards Norrey [-en-Bessin] . Two anti-tank guns and infantry positions were
destroyed. By the order of the Chef. Kompanie returned to its departure position.
At the same time the 3. Kompanie also launched an attack and advanced well. Anti-
tank gun fire from around the church and the wooded area to the right of it. Fire was
returned, 2 anti-tank guns were destroyed. Tank nos. 325, 328, 335, 336 and 337 were
hit by anti-tank gun fire and became total losses within five minutes (the enemy anti-
tank guns or tanks could not be seen). Tank nos. 327 and 329 were damaged by anti-
tank gun hits; these retreated to the repair station. The Kompanie retreated on order.
They resumed the fight from the position behind the slope. Repeated withdrawal
and establishing positions behind the 1. Kompanie.
Task of the 4. Kompanie: securing defence of the flanks of the attacking 1. and
3. Kompanien, providing supporting fire from the positions. Sudden anti-tank gun fire
from Bretteville [L'0rgueilleuse]. Tank no. 471 was burnt out due to the direct hit of an
anti-tank gun. The Kompanie occupied new positions while securing the road, opened
fire and destroyed the discovered anti-tank gun.
The hull of tank no. 404 was hit by an anti-tank gun, and was towed to the repair
station. Firing on the presumed anti-tank guns. At the same time, the enemy infantry
launched an attack on both sides of the road towards Rots. The attack was repulsed by
units ofthe 15./SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 25.

Position ofthe 2.Kompanien northwest ofFontenay [-le-Pesnel], where they knocked
out 3 Shermans.~~ In the evening, the 3 and 4.Kompanien knocked out one Sherman
each.
From 2300 hours the Abteilung relocated to Fontenay [-le-Pesnel]. ´.
.
.

War Diary Appendix no. 4.
12.SS-Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" O.U. 26 September 1944
4. [Kompanie]ISS-Panzer Regiment 12
Attack against Norrey [-en-Bessin] on 09. 06. 1944
Situation:
The enemy firmly held the village of Bretteville [l'0rgueilleuse] and Norrey [-en-Bessin]
again and tried to advance on the Bretteville [l'0rgueilleuse]-Caen road. The l. and
3.Kompanien attacked Norrey [-en-Bessin]. '
Task:
The 4.Kompanie took over the task of securing the right flank and oversaw the advance
of the two Kompanien.
Course of battle:
The sector of the attack position was under heavy enemy artillery fire. At 1440 hours
departure of the 1. and 3. Kompanien towards Norrey [-en-Bessin]. The Grenadiers
followed them. The 4. Kompaniecovered the right flank by fire towards Norrey [-en-Bessin]
and Bretteville [l'0rgueilleuse]. The 1. and 3. Kompanien retreated into their original
positions because of the extremely heavy enemy defence. Constant heavy artillery fire.
The 4. Kompanie established firing-line in the direction of Bretteville [l'0rgueilleuse]. In
the meantime tank no. 416 (According to the KTB of the I/SS-PanzerRegiment 12, Panther no. 417 was damaged here and became a total loss.) of Unterscharfuhrer Voss was knocked out by anti-tank gun fire. The tank was burnt out and the commander, the gunner and the loader were killed.
The driver and the radio operator were severely burnt. The enemy advanced on the road
leading to Le Bourg, and the Kompanie opened fire on them. In the meantime, tank no.
404 of Oberscharfuhrer Heinz Lehmann was hit three times by anti-tank guns and was
knocked out. The driver, Rottenfuhrer Heckl, managed to drive the tank to a position
behind a slope and save it, despite his serious wounds. Then he got out ofthe tank and
was carried to the dressing-station. The radio operator, Schutze Finke, was killed. The
Kompanie repulsed the attack of the enemy launched in the direction of Le Bourg, and
secured the direction as ordered. During this further heavy enemy fire Unterschafuhrer
Karst, tank driver ofthe Kompanie Chef, was killed.
Pohl
Leutnant and Kompaniefuhrer


From the above it appears 6 Panthers became total losses. 325, 328,335, 336 & 337 from 3 kp. with 327 & 329 damaged but recovered for repair. From 4 kp. the first report says 471 'burnt out (obvious typo, must be 417) with 404 damaged but recovered whilst the seperate 4 kp report lists it as no 416. Either way total losses amount to 6 Panthers.

This is a modern view of the area of Norrey en Bessin

and this is a 1947 view

Circled are the areas of interest.

Here is a group of 6 tank hulks in 1947

Note the top wreck nearest the railway line is on its side

Continued in next post

[Michael Kenny]

Here a single upturned hulk certain to be the 4 kp. loss 416 or 417.

Below is another Panther from the group of 6

That gives us 7 Panthers are undisputed total losses on June 9 1944 but Szamveber when he totals up 12th SS losses later in the book only gives 6 Panthers as written off.

[pintere]

That gives us 7 Panthers are undisputed total losses on June 9 1944 but Szamveber when he totals up 12th SS losses later in the book only gives 6 Panthers as written off.

It's not like that's a serious, deceptive error. I've noticed little counting mistakes like this before but none of them are off by a large amount and none give a misleading impression of the battle.

[Michael Kenny]

It's not like that's a serious, deceptive error. I've noticed little counting mistakes like this before but none of them are off by a large amount and none give a misleading impression of the battle.

The book makes great play of the fact it is based on the actual period documentation of the unit. The photo proves that 'those that were there' either made a mistake of were not complete in their accounts.
It is not a ' little counting mistake' because 1 total loss (that we can prove) has vanished from the record. If you read the 12th SS accounts in my first post note they are quite detailed as to which Panthers were hit and recovered. I seriously doubt a total loss would have been overlooked.
The point I am making is not that anyone set out to falsify the record but that absolute reliance on paperwork alone can lead you astray.

[Shermaninterest]

Nice work. Is it known who shoot up those Panthers and where they were positioned? Is this area visible in the photos? Checking Zetterlings book those Panther losses seem to be the bulk of the complete Panther losses for the first weak of fighting. Truly a devastaging attack. It would certainly be interesting to read what destroyed those Panthers. Hit through the side? Is there a chance those Panthers are included in the OR analysis of Panther wrecks? Given the overall defensive nature of German operations from 1943 onwards it feels like the Panther wasn't very suitable for offensive with its rather thin side armour.

[Michael Kenny]

The engagement is better known as 'Bretteville l'Orgueilleuse' June 9 1944. In the 1947 photo I posted in my first post (2nd pic) Bretteville is to the top around the road going L-R and Norrey is at the bottom below the railway line going L-R. The Panthers were engaged by Shermans in Bretteville roughly from around the position of the single upturned Panther.
This is a June 26 1944 air view and the resolution is not good enough to pick up all the wrecks.

Note all the activity around the upturned Panther on extreme left.

[Michael Kenny]

These wrecks were used extensively for target practice and they ended up looking like sieves.

[Ulater]

What do you think happened to the "missing" up-turned Panther?

Also, are the claims for Shermans and AT-guns legit?

P.S: Apparently, It might have been hit by 3 PIAT projectiles day prior to this battle, and later it was overturned when it was towed away from the road.

[Michael Kenny]

What do you think happened to the "missing" up-turned Panther?

The 4 kp Panther lost whilst covering the right flank of 3d kp?

The 4 kp was not with 3 kp so its lost Panther can not be with the 6 wrecks near the railway line.

Apparently, It might have been hit by 3 PIAT projectiles day prior to this battle, and later it was overturned when it was towed away from the road.

Are you using Bernage and 'Panzers In The Battle Of Normandy'? Note that the details it gives ( ' at least 3 of the Panthers remained where they were......the 4 other Panthers were taken away elsewhere for training Allied troops ') is not supported by the 1947 air view that shows 6 Panthers still in place.
You can ignore the upturned Panther because Szamveber says only 6 Panthers were lost. 6 are still together in 1947. 12th SS clearly say 4kp lost a Panther and any such Panther would not be with the 3 kp wrecks.
What evidence is there for the upturned Panther being lost to a PIAT on an earlier date?
If you look at the June 1944 air photo of the upturned Panther you can see a track going around it where vehicles had to divert. This Panther was blocking the road into Bretteville and was simply tipped up and over into the field to unblock the road.

[Miles Krogfus]

According to 3rd Panther Kompanie vets, Panther #335 of Untersturmfuhrer Stagge and 4 others he led were shot, then two Panthers of Untersturmfuhrer Alban #325 and Unterscharfuhrer Krahl "verloren. Fast alle Wagen gerieten in Brand; bei Krahls Panzer konnte man heftige Detonationen von innen heraus beobachten."

[Michael Kenny]

This is a related article that has an air view taken July 6 1944

http://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent. ... ontext=cmh

The 6 Panther are visible

[Michael Kenny]

War Diary extracts.

1st Hussars 6 CAR.

Sherbrook Fusiliers 27 CAR

[Michael Kenny]

1st Regina Rifles

[Michael Kenny]

Map

Coordinates given as 6 figures where the first 3 numbers are 'up' and the last 3 'across'
Rots above is 958713.

The meeting of line 95 and 71 and the square to the right of 95 and above 71

The third number (958) is a point 8/10ths of the way up line 95 from where if meets 71.

713 is 3/10ths of the way along horizontal line 71 from where it meets 95.
That is the way 958713 is worked out. It is not an exact method!

[Miles Krogfus]

Ustuf. Erich Stagge in Panther #335 born November 13,1921, was among many young, new Panther commanders. For example, Stand.Ob.Ju. Joachim Bieback born February 21,1925 and Ostuf. Richard Kulke born December 14,1924. As Michael and others have remarked, young inexperienced crews made up significant numbers in SS Normandy panzer crews, thus . . .