Panthers in french service

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Panthers in french service

#16

Post by Yoozername » 01 Apr 2017, 20:42

Aside from his periscope gun sight ( which is excellent), the gunner has no other type of observation device. He is therefore practically blind, one of the greatest shortcomings of the Panther.

The gunsight with two magnification stages is remarkably clear and has its field of view clear in the center. The gunsight enables observation of a target and shells out to over 3000 meters.

Once the commander has located a target, it takes between 20 and 30 seconds until the gunner can open fire. This data, which is significantly greater than that of the Sherman, stems from the absence of a periscope for the gunner.

The French have identified a key aspect that is missing from American comparisons and criticisms of the gunsights in Sherman tanks as compared to Panther (and other German) tanks. Yes the German optics were good. Clarity was excellent, and ranging reticles were more effective. Yet it was observed in combat reports that US gunners were able to find and get their sights on target faster. [Chieftain's Note: To be clear, this is part of the hand-off process from the commander to the gunner. With a fixed zoom on the gunsight, his field of vision is limited. As a result, the commander directing the gunner onto the target must lay the gunner on to a higher degree of accuracy before the gunner can even see the target in his field of vision to identify or aim at it. American tanks have a unity (Unmagnified) sight to give the gunner situational awareness of where he needs to lay in order to see the target in the high-power sight. On the M1A1 Abrams, the x3/x10 toggle switch performs the same role with one sight]
This is from the WOT guy. As usual, he makes errors even though he is a tanker. In this case, he seems to show reading comprehension issues.

The Panther had a dual magnification sight. 2.5× and 5.0×
28° at 2.5×
14° at 5.0×

So, when not actually engaging a target, the gunner used the 2.5X and it gave a very good FOV 28 deg(field of view). The 5X would be used when a target has been called out and the gunner has it already sighted with the 2.5X. In close engagements, he may not even do that. And as far as the actual engagement time to open fire (20-30 sec??), that has many variables and range itself is a major one. If a sherman gets the first shot in at 2500 meters, well la-de-da, I would bet on the panther getting the second!

It is NOT a periscope. It was an articulated telescope Turmzielfernrohr TZF 12. The sherman had an additional periscopic device for the gunner 1x. So, unless one is fighting at short ranges (and that was the case in instances), this is being overblown in that report.

So, the panther, like most military things, uses a drill to engage targets. The drill is that the TC (tank commander) is the primary means by which targets are spotted and selected (not the gunner). It is the same in a StuG by the way. The TC has excellent vision devices to include all around vision blocks, binoculars, and the means to use the binocs (reticles), to estimate range himself. He calls out the target, range and the rotation. he has a post in front of his vision block that points forward. He commands the turret rotation in degrees or mils and uses terrain features to help the gunner get on target. The gunner then uses his reticles to estimate the range himself. Having 5X magnification helps this tremendously. Basically, a target at 1500 meters looks like it is 300 meters away. The reticles are in the center of his optics where the glass is clear. He, and the TC, can observe and correct from observing the fall of shot.

dieseltaylor
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41
Location: U.K.

Re: Panthers in french service

#17

Post by dieseltaylor » 01 Apr 2017, 21:16

Very useful. Thanks.

I was also aware that the issue of "slow turrets" was perhaps slightly overblown to make Allied tankers feel better. From what I understand a fast turret may overshoot to a degree and require better setting. There is no doubt in certain circumstance it would be advantageous - as was a short barrel. I suspect may Allied tankers would gratefully taken a 17pdr [77mm] over a 75mm.


Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Panthers in french service

#18

Post by Yoozername » 01 Apr 2017, 21:57

I won't denigrate the French, but most WWII tanks do not fire on the move if they want accuracy. Being on a side slope of 20 degrees would be a pretty good load on a hydraulic system. That is, rotating up the slope. Having the actual turret rotate due to that, I dunno. Hydraulic systems give good initial torque but lose it once at speed. Hence the slow rotation.

It comes down to many factors and actual employment. The Panther could use its ability to rotate in place on its tracks to quickly get the actual turret in the right direction to begin with. The same as the Tiger. If one has a threat to one's side, and the armor on your tank is thin on the side, well it behooves you to do this anyway. I would actually command a reverse and then a half left on stopping.

You bring up a good point. Slewing a turret very fast will make the FOV of the gunner critical. A narrow FOV and a fast turret traverse seems sketchy unless a TC has an over-ride control. The sherman system was actually an electrical motor driving a hydraulic pump. Sort of the best of both worlds.

I forgot to mention it but the Germans had a 'clock' device that correlated the TC orientation. So, he could call out a "10 o'clock tank 600 meters!", and the gunner would then have a good indication of when to stop. Having 28 deg. FOV, he would then see the area under question before the turret actually got to 10 o'clock. The driver also had something similar.

Kawinksy
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 01 Oct 2016, 15:45
Location: Romania

Re: Panthers in french service

#19

Post by Kawinksy » 02 Apr 2017, 16:25

Yoozername wrote:
The TC has excellent vision devices to include all around vision blocks, binoculars, and the means to use the binocs (reticles), to estimate range himself. He calls out the target, range and the rotation.
From what I could gather while looking through the files of the Panzertruppenschule Putlos, Oldenburg, the TC does not have to estimate the range at any time. The training instruction "Merkblatt Nr. 95 Schulschiessubung mit der 7,5 cm K.K. 42 vom Pz.Kpfw. V Panther" notes that the tank commander only has to call out the direction, use of ammo type and on what target the gunner has to look for. For example, TC commands: "12 Uhr - Kanone - Pak", then the gunner has to align the turret to that direction, (has its own azimuth indicator for assistance), set up the sight (magnification, elevation) and estimate the range. After that, he has to inform the TC about the estimated range and elevation, "12 Uhr - Pak - 4000 - 68". If TC confirms, he commands "Feuer frei" and the gunner has then to observe his fired shot, make adjustments and to inform back on the results. The TC, also on track with the fired shot, confirm the probable hit or miss. Instructions emphasised a strict double check proceedings.

As for the 20-30 seconds, I do belive that it might has to do either with the lack of drill, or might be somewaht true in very close range engagements, where the gunner's skills are indeed challenged. However, if anyone is interested I can post the training instructions.
Yoozername wrote: I forgot to mention it but the Germans had a 'clock' device that correlated the TC orientation.
Yes that's the azimuth indicator, a report on the Pz Beob Wg Panther states:
Both the commander and the observer are provided with azimuth indicators to show the amount the turret is traversed off the center line of the hull. It has two dials. The left hand dial has an inner scale graduated in clock hours from 1 to 12 and an outer scale graduated inhundreds of mils from 1 to 64.This dial is used for obtaining a rough reading only. A more precise reading can be obtained by using the right hand dial which has an outer scale graduated in mils from 0 to 100 and an inner correction disc used for concentrating the fire of a number of different guns on one point.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Panthers in french service

#20

Post by Yoozername » 02 Apr 2017, 21:20

I really think that the TC would give some indication of range. It might be "Battle-sight", or an estimation based on his stereoscopic binoculars with reticles. Most countries had a similar drill in my opinion. The gunner might use the range estimation as his initial setting and perhaps use his sight 'triangles' to ascertain if it is off.

A thread discussing...

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=100524


pg 334 Panzer Tactics

https://books.google.com/books?id=bZFH7 ... ll&f=false

Kawinksy
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 01 Oct 2016, 15:45
Location: Romania

Re: Panthers in french service

#21

Post by Kawinksy » 02 Apr 2017, 22:52

Thank you Yozername for those very useful links. I must confess that I might have made some errors in translation, as it is really hard to get proper nuances. Maybe someone which is fluent in German can help out.

Here is the aforementioned document:
Image

However, there are many more esp. for Panther, anyone interested pm me please.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Panthers in french service

#22

Post by Yoozername » 03 Apr 2017, 00:18

Interesting document. Its April 1943. I would like to see more.

Kawinksy
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 01 Oct 2016, 15:45
Location: Romania

Re: Panthers in french service

#23

Post by Kawinksy » 03 Apr 2017, 10:09

All training instructions from the "Schiesschule der Panzertruppenschule, Putlos" I've found are printed in April 1943, the school instruction for "Panzer-Lehrgange "Panther" is dated January 1944.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Panthers in french service

#24

Post by Yoozername » 03 Apr 2017, 16:40

The one thing I can think of is that the early Panthers had the binocular sight. This would increase the gunner's ability to gauge range a bit.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1159
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: Panthers in french service

#25

Post by Stiltzkin » 17 Apr 2017, 01:00

Ausführung (execution): The Tank Commander leads and commands: "Gun! HE-Shell! Lock and Load!"
Loader reports: "Gun locked and loaded!"
Commander: "12 o'clock! - Gun! - AT gun!"
Gunner estimates distance to the target on the range and choses the sights. The estimated distance and chosen sights are reported to the TC.
The Writer documents the procedure under "comments" in the firing list. Thereupon the Gunner reports "Done/Completed!"
TC commands: "Fire!"
Loader unlocks the gun.
The Gunner fires the first shot and observes the impact, while informing the TC about the procedure and about possible corrections.
Those corrections are gathered and registered by the observer/writer.
The following shots are to be conducted according to firing rules I, 4, 5 of the panzertruppen/tank school's handout.
Right before firing the last shot the TC shouts "empty tube!".
Loader "empty!"
TC: "muzzle up!"

Anything else?
Honestly this is just the tank schooling procedure, to introduce the gunner to the KwK, thus you cannot conclude that the TC did not participate in further procedures, though the goal was to minimze the load (and processes) on the TC in order to make everyone effective at their respective job.

Ulater
Member
Posts: 246
Joined: 09 Mar 2015, 20:36
Location: USA

Re: Panthers in french service

#26

Post by Ulater » 04 May 2017, 19:24

Thanks for useful info. I just wish that original report could be found somewhere.

Post Reply

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”