Was the King Tiger a Load of Rubbish?

[delete013]

The general consensus was that employing Tigers in a Panzer Division was a bad idea. Panzer VI required much more maintenance and they were too precious to be wasted in missions that other models could accomplish. Check this report by 13. Kompanie (Tiger-Kp.) / Pz.Reg. Großdeutschland (3/1943).

http://panzer-elmito.org/tanques/tiger_ ... 943_D.html

what are the key points here? Thanks for posting this.

Balck's POV was that the Heavy tank battalions were a waste and should have been integrated with divisions.

Balck had an idea of creating three types of divisions which would include heavy tanks in a dedicated breakthrough template. That means no mixing of various tank categories. Apparently the issue was how to achieve for heavy tanks to keep up with the rest of the division. Creating separate heavy battalions, with specialised teams for servicing complex machines seems a logical consequence. Balck's criticism is perhaps very specific. Namely, that as independent units they were not concentrated in a large breakthrough formation but rather fragmented across the front as "fire brigades". This vexillationing was also Guderian's criticism.

[delete013]

First use of TII was July 16 and the 12 TII played no part in the defence of Caen.

That is true. I had the second generation in mind. That would be panthers in case of Caen. I made a mistake for not pointing that out.

EPSOM ('Rauray') was a total disaster for the Germans. It led to the destruction of their last reserves and the attack that was split the Allies and reach the beaches was utterly defeated with huge panzer losses. Not a bad result for the 'held-off' British.

If I recall correctly was Rauray part of Op. Martlet? Why would you call it a disaster? The British failed to reach their objective. Germans didn't do anything different from the previous British offensives. They might have been performing worse or the British better but the conditions were, as usual, pretty bad for the former.

A fairy story from Agte. The Tiger commander had to come up with a reason as to why he was forced to walk home and a claim for the usual 'dozen Shermans' is a nice excuse for failure.

Why would he lie? He didn't claim 10 shermans. Also o
what makes you think he would do what you would have done in his position?

[Michael Kenny]

If I recall correctly was Rauray part of Op. Martlet? Why would you call it a disaster? The British failed to reach their objective.

The did take Hill 112. Took it an held it against all attacks. Given the warning from ULTRA about the German Offensive Montgomery then ordered the retreat from Hill 112 to prevent any possibility it could be cut-off. 11AD duly pulled back and the Germans announced they has stormed the empty summit.
The German losses were substantial. It ended all hope they could defeat the landings. Ground gains were not as expected but the attrition (of the Germans) was enormous. Check the tank states for the Panzers before and after EPSOM..

Why would he lie?

To explain away why he had to walk home and leave his Uber-Panzer behind? There are no British accounts that fit the events he describes. There are 4 provable Tiger losses from EPSOM and a further 2 Tiger wrecks just north of the railway tracks south of Cheux that are not yet fully explained

[critical mass]

Nice article of previously unknown (to me) summer time trials in Russia with Tiger 2. Notice the ductile behavior of armor -as could be ecpected in these ambient conditions- and that 152mm ML20 bounces on front and sides...

https://warspot.ru/15158-bolshaya-koshka-s-peregruzom

[Avalancheon]

Nice article of previously unknown (to me) summer time trials in Russia with Tiger 2. Notice the ductile behavior of armor -as could be ecpected in these ambient conditions- and that 152mm ML20 bounces on front and sides...

https://warspot.ru/15158-bolshaya-koshka-s-peregruzom

Yes, the molybdinum-free armor really didn't like the cold. But even during the Kubinka trials (which were conducted in winter),the Tiger II held up quite well. The UFP was able to bounce a 152mm shell. However, the LFP was penetrated by a 152mm shell.

[critical mass]

Nice article of previously unknown (to me) summer time trials in Russia with Tiger 2. Notice the ductile behavior of armor -as could be ecpected in these ambient conditions- and that 152mm ML20 bounces on front and sides...

https://warspot.ru/15158-bolshaya-koshka-s-peregruzom

Yes, the molybdinum-free armor really didn't like the cold. But even during the Kubinka trials (which were conducted in winter),the Tiger II held up quite well. The UFP was able to bounce a 152mm shell. However, the LFP was penetrated by a 152mm shell.

The lfp was only in the Kubinka trials holed (not penetrated). These were the sub zero temperature trials.

[Peasant]

Nice article of previously unknown (to me) summer time trials in Russia with Tiger 2. Notice the ductile behavior of armor -as could be ecpected in these ambient conditions- and that 152mm ML20 bounces on front and sides...

https://warspot.ru/15158-bolshaya-koshka-s-peregruzom

I hate that guy, he and the tankarchives owner are a match made in heaven.

[Mobius]

Nice article of previously unknown (to me) summer time trials in Russia with Tiger 2. Notice the ductile behavior of armor -as could be ecpected in these ambient conditions- and that 152mm ML20 bounces on front and sides...

https://warspot.ru/15158-bolshaya-koshka-s-peregruzom

I hate that guy, he and the tankarchives owner are a match made in heaven.

Tankarchives latest revelation is that a picture shows that a KT UFH was penetrated from the front in some battle.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/1 ... ombat.html
A battle where the known Soviet guns were 76mm and 122mm howitzers. Maybe if he had more details some conclusions could be made.
If it was penetrated by some gun it would be the 88mm from the KT post battle.

[Michael Kenny]

Tankarchives latest revelation is that a picture shows that a KT UFH was penetrated from the front in some battle.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/1 ... ombat.html
A battle where the known Soviet guns were 76mm and 122mm howitzers. Maybe if he had more details some conclusions could be made.
If it was penetrated by some gun it would be the 88mm from the KT post battle.

It was published in Panzerwrecks 20 a while back

[Mobius]

Tankarchives latest revelation is that a picture shows that a KT UFH was penetrated from the front in some battle.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/1 ... ombat.html
A battle where the known Soviet guns were 76mm and 122mm howitzers. Maybe if he had more details some conclusions could be made.
If it was penetrated by some gun it would be the 88mm from the KT post battle.

It was published in Panzerwrecks 20 a while back

TII Penetration jki.jpgTII Penetration gg.jpg

But that is not the one with the arrow. Why would it not qualify for an arrow?

[critical mass]

HEAT not AP. Without the back of the plate, I wouldn’t judge it as penetration. It’s unclear how deep the vortex went.
Panzerfaust and even gewehrgranatpatrone HL can cause that.

[Alejandro_]

But that is not the one with the arrow. Why would it not qualify for an arrow?

As I understand an arrow is added if there is full penetration. The second picture maybe corresponds to another Tiger II hit in the Balaton region. According to Soviet sources a total of 19 Tiger II were analysed in the second study, conducted between 29th March and 4th of April.

In my opinion even the 88L71 would struggle with the Tiger II upper front plate. I was thinking that another possibility could be that a passing Soviet vehicle passing by decided to have a shot at it, maybe SU-100 but then impact area looks rather small...

[Mobius]

HEAT not AP. Without the back of the plate, I wouldn’t judge it as penetration. It’s unclear how deep the vortex went.
Panzerfaust and even gewehrgranatpatrone HL can cause that.

Here is a Panzerfaust vs KT.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1186158648587968514
In fact it has the same larger oval mark around the hole.

[Alejandro_]

In fact it has the same larger oval mark around the hole.

Well spotted. Could it be 2 hits by Panzerfaust, one of them with penetration?

[critical mass]

HEAT not AP. Without the back of the plate, I wouldn’t judge it as penetration. It’s unclear how deep the vortex went.
Panzerfaust and even gewehrgranatpatrone HL can cause that.

Here is a Panzerfaust vs KT.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1186158648587968514
In fact it has the same larger oval mark around the hole.
KThole.jpg

Exactly. Also the same lip formation around the edges, which are not plastic deformations (petals) but molten steel. Not sure it’s a qualified combat battle damage. Who would stand in front of an intact tiger 2 with captured panzerfaust at close range and aim for the ufp instead of the side of the turret? I strongly suspect a post battle improvised style test to check the effect of ordnance. The US and British did the same with Panzerfaust against Tiger 2 front.

The definition of „penetration“ becomes fuzzy for HEAT. It never penetrates- as no part of the penetrator makes an exit on the back side of the plate. The most it can do is achieve holing through the plate. The Tiger2 ufp was vulnerable to a great variety of German late ww2 HEAT in that way.