Abandoned Panthers.

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Michael Kenny
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Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Michael Kenny » 16 Aug 2017 19:42

The usual excuse for the staggering German tank losses in Normandy is that most of them 'ran out of petrol/breakdown' and thus they are not really knocked out after all and should be classed as 'non-combat' losses.
These photos puzzle me.

Air jjj......jpg


Did 4 Panthers and a Stug all run out of petrol/breakdown' in the exact same spot?

The photos are representitive. The are many more pics of groups of tanks simply left behind in the panic of the retreat.
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critical mass
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby critical mass » 17 Aug 2017 08:51

Do You know the location of the photos in relationship to geography? Abandonment of AVF indeed is an important contributor to vehicle losses. But why would You want to subsummize them under the different category "knocked out"?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2017 10:04

critical mass wrote:Do You know the location of the photos in relationship to geography? Abandonment of AVF indeed is an important contributor to vehicle losses. But why would You want to subsummize them under the different category "knocked out"?


I asked why are tanks that the crews run away and leave are explained away as 'broken down' or 'ran out of petrol' Quite clearly they could not all have broken down/ran out of fuel at the exact same spot.
Just like these 2 Panthers did not break down/run out of fuel within inches of each other.

screenshot.2017-08-17.jpg


My question is why 'abandonment' is always linked with 'run out of fuel/broken down' rather than allowing for the more obvious reason that the crew just ran off and left them.
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GregSingh
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby GregSingh » 17 Aug 2017 10:45

Why did all those tanks run in circles? Trying to avoid enemy fire?

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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Ulater » 17 Aug 2017 10:52

GregSingh wrote:Why did all those tanks run in circles? Trying to avoid enemy fire?



No, most probably this was a meeting place for a bigger unit, that moved somewhere else then.

And left these behind, because they could not be keep up for one reason, or another. Because they broke down or did not have fuel.

Those spots on the ground also dont look dense enough to be artillery or bomb strikes, so I would presume that would be grass that died from not getting sunlight, because of vehicles being parked on top of it.

Denniss
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Denniss » 17 Aug 2017 10:59

looks more like a former maintenance area, those left behind could not be repaired in time or were stripped off parts

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Mobius
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Mobius » 17 Aug 2017 13:43

They could of realized that they did not have enough fuel to get to their lines. Instead of driving the tanks down a road until they ran out of fuel one by one, the crews could of used trucks or other light vehicles to all travel together to their lines. If you look closely at the second photo there are piles of boxes or fuel cans piled in certain locations.

The circular driving pattern is curious. Maybe it is to throw off aim from air attacks. That's what ships under attack from planes do.

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Gorque
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Gorque » 17 Aug 2017 14:21

Hi Michael:

I think one of the first questions to be answered is where are these pictures from and, depending upon the answer to the first question, how do you know that they are abandoned? I'm looking forward to your reply.

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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2017 15:11

Gorque wrote:Hi Michael:

I think one of the first questions to be answered is where are these pictures from and, depending upon the answer to the first question, how do you know that they are abandoned? I'm looking forward to your reply.



They are from the German retreat from Normandy.

I don't know if they have been abandoned.
No one knows if they have been abandoned.
However I have never seen anyone commenting on them (or their like) suggesting they were anything other than 'abandoned when they broke down or ran out of petrol'
That is the point of my question.
The only dispute now seems to center around my claiming they were battle-worthy tanks that the crews decided it was safer to run away from.

The multitude 'track-marks' is a very good observation which(to me) suggests another very simple explanation which, in the rush to mark them as 'non-combat' losses is overlooked.

The first photo has a line of foxholes dug along the bottom hedge-line. At some point and infantry unit 'rested' there.
Also if it was a unit repair location they would not park the tanks in the centre of a field.
The tree-lined road has obviously been avoided by Allied vehicles who use the fields either side to move forward. Is it mined or blocked with other vehicles?

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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Gorque » 17 Aug 2017 16:03

Hi Michael:

Thanks for the quick reply and for your observations regarding the pictures.

Edit:

The tree-lined road has obviously been avoided by Allied vehicles who use the fields either side to move forward. Is it mined or blocked with other vehicles?


How do you know this about the above? Is this mentioned in the book? Are there other pictures in this series of the Allied vehicles avoiding the road?

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Gorque
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Gorque » 17 Aug 2017 16:26

Hi Michael:

In picture #3, it looks like the "G" model was holed in the side of the turret right above the whatever the tank was carrying. To me it looks like some type of discoloring around the suspected holing. Also the gun is slightly depressed, perhaps indicating a hydraulics failure. The car behind it also doesn't appear in any driveable condition.

In pictures 1 & 2, it looks to me as if the StuG is missing its roof. The Panther in picture #1, on the left side of the picture looks as if its engine cover is open. The one closest on the right looks to me that its hatches are open. In picture # 2, the remaining Panthers also appear to have their hatches open.

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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2017 17:36

Gorque wrote:
How do you know this about the above? Is this mentioned in the book?


It is common sense. The tracks show the vehicles have avoided the road. There must be a reason. You have eyes just as good as any author and your readings are just as good as theirs. Try not to be led by others and form your own conclusions.

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Gorque
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Gorque » 17 Aug 2017 17:48

Michael Kenny wrote:
Gorque wrote:
How do you know this about the above? Is this mentioned in the book?


It is common sense. The tracks show the vehicles have avoided the road. There must be a reason. You have eyes just as good as any author and your conclusions are just as good as theirs. Try not to be led by others and form your own conclusions.


Hi Michael:

I can see that there are many tracks in the fields, but the question was regarding me questioning your statement on Allied vehicles. I don't see any Allied vehicles, at least none that I recognize as an Allied vehicle. I don't have the book and therefore have no idea as to when or where the photo was taken. As a previous poster mentioned, the plethora of tracks could have been caused by it being a field maintenance area and this area could have been photographed before any Allies appeared.

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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2017 17:56

The vehicles tucked in the hedges will be Allied.
Workshop areas would have have overhead cover and would never be an open field. Note that for such a juicy target there are no bomb/rocket craters around the tanks.

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Gorque
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Re: Abandoned Panthers.

Postby Gorque » 17 Aug 2017 18:00

Michael Kenny wrote:The vehicles tucked in the hedges will be Allied.
Workshop areas would have have overhead cover and would never be an open field. Note that for such a juicy target there are no bomb/rocket craters around the tanks.


Thank you Michael. :thumbsup:


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