La Gleize Tiger...

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Harro
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La Gleize Tiger...

#1

Post by Harro » 13 Dec 2017, 13:56

In this 1994 video, the late Jupp Steinbüchel talks about the Königstiger in front of the museum in La Gleize. He served in the Nachrichtenabteilung (signals battalion) of the Leibstandarte from 1940 to 1945. During the Normandy battles, SS-Oberscharführer Steinbüchel was assigned to Knittel's staff with his Sd.Kfz. 251 radio vehicle to provide communications between Knittel and the division commander. Jupp explains that he knew the commander of this tank - SS-Obersturmführer Dollinger - because they served in the signals battalion together before Dollinger was send to an officer course and subsquently was transferred to schw. SS-Panzer-Abteilung 501. He explains the layout of the tank to the others (his wife and two of his comrades with their wifes), points out that the damaged barrel had been repaired and that a shell had bounced of its front armour. Until his death in 2014 Jupp never tired in his efforts to help me bring my project to a positive conclusion and it would have been impossible to write my book about Knittel without him.


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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#2

Post by seppw » 25 Dec 2017, 18:00

Image
After the tank was abandoned by its crew, because a lucky shot had destroyed its gun barrel, the Americans tested their ammo against the KT's hull at ultra close range.
My guesses:
  1. Hole next to the hull MG: 4 x 76mm M62 APCBC
  2. long vertical hole: 1 x 76mm M79 AP
  3. Right-most hole: 1 x 76mm M62 APCBC
In my opinion the quality of the ufp is quite decent. What do you think?
The lfp is difficult to judge, because the impact is so close to the edge.
Last edited by seppw on 26 Dec 2017, 01:32, edited 1 time in total.


Michael Kenny
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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#3

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Dec 2017, 18:50

seppw wrote: After the tank was abandoned by its crew, because a lucky shot had destroyed its gun barrel,.
Amazing how many Tigers were hit by 'lucky shots' and knocked out.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#4

Post by seppw » 25 Dec 2017, 18:56

Michael Kenny wrote:
seppw wrote: After the tank was abandoned by its crew, because a lucky shot had destroyed its gun barrel,.
Amazing how many Tigers were hit by 'lucky shots' and knocked out.
How many? And what does "knocked out" mean according to you?

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#5

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Dec 2017, 19:06

seppw wrote:what does "knocked out" mean according to you?
Knocked out has a very clear meaning. No longer able to participate in any action. Once a knocked out tank comes under the control of the enemy it then becomes a total loss. The TII in question is total loss.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#6

Post by seppw » 25 Dec 2017, 19:23

Michael Kenny wrote:
seppw wrote:what does "knocked out" mean according to you?
Knocked out has a very clear meaning. No longer able to participate in any action. Once a knocked out tank comes under the control of the enemy it then becomes a total loss. The TII in question is total loss.
It can still kill infantry and trucks, therefore it's not knocked out according to your definition.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#7

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Dec 2017, 20:40

seppw wrote: therefore it's not knocked out according to your definition.
You should visit the Facebook 'Tiger Tank' page. There you can join in with the others when they chant the mantra 'more Tigers were abandoned than were knocked out ' lie.

I have no more time to waste on Uber-tank fairy-tales.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#8

Post by Mobius » 25 Dec 2017, 20:54

76mm M79 is not HVAP. M93 is HVAP.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#9

Post by Richard Anderson » 25 Dec 2017, 21:07

Mobius wrote:76mm M79 is not HVAP. M93 is HVAP.
I doubt it was at the time of the "test". :) It was 76mm T4E17 until OCM 26841 in February (still haven't tracked down the date) 1945 standardized it as M93. :D

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Mobius
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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#10

Post by Mobius » 26 Dec 2017, 00:43

You are right, at the time of the test 76mm HVAP was T4E17. The later (9/1945) T4E20 became the M93.

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#11

Post by seppw » 26 Dec 2017, 01:31

Michael Kenny wrote:
seppw wrote: After the tank was abandoned by its crew, because a lucky shot had destroyed its gun barrel,.
Amazing how many Tigers were hit by 'lucky shots' and knocked out.
Michael Kenny wrote:
seppw wrote: therefore it's not knocked out according to your definition.
You should visit the Facebook 'Tiger Tank' page. There you can join in with the others when they chant the mantra 'more Tigers were abandoned than were knocked out ' lie.

I have no more time to waste on Uber-tank fairy-tales.
Uber-tank fairy tales like "hitting the frontal cross section of a gun barrel from 1000m using a WWII tank is a likely event and no luck at all."?
Also you keep repeating the word "Tiger" as if i had claimed Tigers were imprenetrable in 1945, even though this thread is about a King Tiger.
Mobius wrote:76mm M79 is not HVAP. M93 is HVAP.
Yeah, M79 is just AP. Corrected. Was that even a M79 or a T4E17? It looks kinda like some sort of sub-caliber round or ACPR.

Anyway btt: Has anyone ever measured how deep the holes are?

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#12

Post by Gulo » 15 Jan 2018, 18:13

Why did the Germans start using many machines too late? Königstiger, a tank that fired very far, great for the steppe of the USSR, but used when the Germans were retreating and fighting in the European forests and and cities. Sturmtiger, self-propelled heavy mortar, great for attacking strongly defended positions, but used when Germany no longer attacked such positions, except for the uprising in Warsaw. Someone may say: "Machine design takes a long time. Before they used them, the situation changed." Yes, but everyone knows that machine design takes time, so when the situation changes quickly, you are canceling projects, which will be late, and put all your energy into producing what you can do quickly. After 1943, the Americans and the Soviets could start long projects because they knew that the war was going well for them. But should the Germans do that?

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#13

Post by eindhoven » 24 Feb 2018, 19:34

Harro, thank you for a recht Sauber Qualitäts post! Jupp sure does move with purpose here in this video and has quite a bit of gunpowder left in him. It is a proper thing to remember those who help us in this life. May he Rest in Peace. As you had a chance to speak about Dollinger were there any other take aways about him outside of the very brief comments in the video? Outside of 2 events, his presence when Wittmann met his fate and of course his participation with KG Peiper with his surviving Königstiger in-situ in La Gleize he remains a bit enigmatic.

Dollinger here as SS-Untersturmführer
SS-Ustuf Dollinger.jpg
SS-Ustuf Dollinger.jpg (39.88 KiB) Viewed 6285 times

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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#14

Post by MarioL » 26 Feb 2018, 14:21

Hello eindhoven,
not much is known about Dollinger.
8 years ago i talked with a veteran of the sSSPzAbt 101/501, Benno von Helldorff.

Here is what he told me about Dollinger:

Dollinger war ein ruhiger Typ der aber auch sehr laut werden konnte,z.B. bei Respektlosigkeit.
Bei einem Antreten von Dollinger bei dem er etwas vorlas brabbelte ein gewisser Müller immer dazwischen.(Müller war der Sohn von Heinrich Müller,Chef des Amtes IV (Geheime Staatspolizei) im Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA)).
Dollinger ging auf ihn zu und brüllte ihn an.(Zitat Helldorf: so habe ich noch nie jemanden brüllen gehört)
Helldorf spielte zusammen mit Dollinger,Möbius und dem Spieß der 2.Kp Skat.


Dollinger ist mit seinem Panzer auf eine Mine gefahren,die Besatzung bootet aus,Dollinger läuft aber nochmal zum Panzer zurück und wird von einem Russen in den Kopf getroffen.
Der Tiger brannte aus.
Ort ist Neuhäusel(Nové Zámky)noch Februar 1945, nicht 6.März.
Hantusch fiel auch in Neuhäusel.

Helldorf war am 3. März in Bremen deshalb weiß er es so genau.

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Harro
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Re: La Gleize Tiger...

#15

Post by Harro » 17 Jun 2018, 20:30

eindhoven wrote:Harro, thank you for a recht Sauber Qualitäts post! Jupp sure does move with purpose here in this video and has quite a bit of gunpowder left in him. It is a proper thing to remember those who help us in this life. May he Rest in Peace. As you had a chance to speak about Dollinger were there any other take aways about him outside of the very brief comments in the video? Outside of 2 events, his presence when Wittmann met his fate and of course his participation with KG Peiper with his surviving Königstiger in-situ in La Gleize he remains a bit enigmatic.
I somehow managed to miss all comments in this post. "Eindhoven", in the video Jupp also talks with Gérard Grégoire about Dollinger. I'll see if I can find the fragment for you (have to reconnect the VCR for that purpose and find the unlabeled tape in a book of 40 ).

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