'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

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Yoozername
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#151

Post by Yoozername » 20 Jan 2019, 21:30

Section II: Invasion of Western Europe
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Chapter 7: Normandy
Late on D-day, Maj. Gen. Leonard T. Gerow, commanding V Corps, requested "continuous fighter bomber support to search out and attack enemy artillery firing on beaches,"24 and Quesada telephoned from the Normandy shore further to inform the Ninth and his own group commanders of the nature and significance of the mission. Since the front was fluid and knowledge of the enemy's exact location was limited, no effort could be made to apply air power directly to the front lines with pinpointed targets assigned. Instead, with the bomb line fixed on the Aure River, which parallels the coast between Isigny and Bayeux at a distance of from two to five miles inland, IX TAC was directed to provide planes to conduct continuous armed reconnaissance of the area Aure River-Bayeux-Airel in squadron strength from 0600 until 2230 hours on 7 June. The ensuing action involved 467 fighter-bomber sorties in the course of 35 missions flown by the 365th, 366th, and 368th Groups, most of whose squadrons flew four missions in the course of a long and hectic day. The cost was thirteen aircraft, with two pilots saved. Individual squadrons were in the air from two to three hours, but the distance separating their English bases from the battle area restricted the actual time over target of approximately half of the squadrons to less than an hour. In only two reported cases did the headquarter's ship direct attacks on specific targets; the balance were upon those selected by squadron leaders. For the most part the targets were armor and trucks on roads and troop concentrations in Cerisy and Balleroy forests, but five batteries, which this day constituted priority targets, were spotted and attacked.25
How many German divisions were in the targeted area?
On this as on other days until 12 June, when OMAHA beachhead had been driven inland fifteen to twenty miles and linked with those to east and west, Army requests were few, for the front remained fluid and communications were difficult. Weather blocked some air operations on 8 June and eliminated them on the 9th. But whenever possible air continued its close support.26 Thirteen minutes after the forward controller directed a squadron overhead to attack a battery holding up the Rangers on 7 June, the target was reported hit. Under the same control, crossroads near Port-en-Bessin were bombed on 8 June; that very day contact was made between American and British ground forces in that area.27 Armed reconnaissance by fighter-bombers continued to blast enemy positions and movement by road and rail with such effect that a German soldier was warranted in writing home that "the American fliers are chasing us like hares," while the commander of Panzer Lehr Division later described the road from Vire to Bény Bocage as a "Jabo Rennstrecke" (a fighter-bomber racecourse).
Given the terrain the Americans were fighting through, I am not surprised that Army requests were few.

Yoozername
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#152

Post by Yoozername » 20 Jan 2019, 21:41

The task of 12 SS Panzer Division was to throw the British and Canadians back into the sea. They failed.
Mighty big task for one division, and yes, they did attack initially without other units in place.


Hanny
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#153

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019, 10:35

Yoozername wrote:
20 Jan 2019, 17:47
Report on the state of of 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH of the month of May of 1944 written on 01.06.1944 (5 days before the beginning of the invasion of Normandy). This division was in these dates set within the 'I.SS-Pz.Korps' (Source: Anlage 1 zu 1.SS-Pz.Div. LAH Ia Nr. 656/44 f.Kdos dated on 4.6.1944)
Trucks
2145/700=32% of TOE

Supply trucks.
2145/180=6% of TOE

Prob number of supply Trucks out of the 700.
58 in 6 formations.

If one supply formation (10 trucks) was present to maintain the 1.SS-Pz. Rgt, a loss of 6 trucks lost and 8 damaged was used earlier, so 14/58 is a 24% loss of use of Division supply trucks, or if 2 supply detatchments present, 14/20=70% loss of those present.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#154

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Jan 2019, 20:33

Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019, 10:35
If one supply formation (10 trucks) was present to maintain the 1.SS-Pz. Rgt, a loss of 6 trucks lost and 8 damaged was used earlier, so 14/58 is a 24% loss of use of Division supply trucks, or if 2 supply detatchments present, 14/20=70% loss of those present.
Er, um, except the quoted loss of 6 destroyed and 8 damaged was the I./SS-Panzerregiment 12., not 1. :D
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Richard Anderson
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#155

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Jan 2019, 20:41

So, anyway, in June Ob.West reported the following shortfall as of the 1st of the month/deliveries/losses:

PKW - 3,535/2,490/919
LKW - 11,447/3,465/1,649

July deliveries/losses:

PKW - 765/25
LKW - 932/57

August deliveries/losses:

PKW - 520/8,384
LKW - 1,082/7,469

Sadly, I could find no data for deliveries/losses in September, but by then, shortfalls were:

PKW - 4,979
LKW - 14,846
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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Yoozername
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#156

Post by Yoozername » 22 Jan 2019, 01:56

From Panzeworld....
Image

Hanny
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#157

Post by Hanny » 22 Jan 2019, 09:56

Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Jan 2019, 20:33
Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019, 10:35
If one supply formation (10 trucks) was present to maintain the 1.SS-Pz. Rgt, a loss of 6 trucks lost and 8 damaged was used earlier, so 14/58 is a 24% loss of use of Division supply trucks, or if 2 supply detatchments present, 14/20=70% loss of those present.
Er, um, except the quoted loss of 6 destroyed and 8 damaged was the I./SS-Panzerregiment 12., not 1. :D
Doh! :x :lol: My problem with it is that the number of AFV requiring fuel is prob a better way to work out how many fuel trucks accompanied them on the 120 or so march.

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent ... ontext=cmh has different truck losses and causes of loss.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#158

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 Jan 2019, 17:15

Hanny wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 09:56
Doh! :x :lol: My problem with it is that the number of AFV requiring fuel is prob a better way to work out how many fuel trucks accompanied them on the 120 or so march.

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent ... ontext=cmh has different truck losses and causes of loss.
Indeed, just one Flak 38(t) and four trucks, while Meyer in his History of the 12th SS Panzer Division specifically said that the air attacks did not have a major affect other than delaying movement.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Yoozername
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#159

Post by Yoozername » 22 Jan 2019, 17:37

Indeed, just one Flak 38(t) and four trucks, while Meyer in his History of the 12th SS Panzer Division specifically said that the air attacks did not have a major affect other than delaying movement.
And that had a major impact on the resulting battle. It's akin to saying, the mortar fire did not have a major effect on the advance aside from pinning down most of the troops from moving to their jump off points.

I guess posting pics of blurry 'sploding trucks and anal retentive accounting proves something to some people?

Yoozername
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#160

Post by Yoozername » 22 Jan 2019, 19:05

Doh! :x :lol: My problem with it is that the number of AFV requiring fuel is prob a better way to work out how many fuel trucks accompanied them on the 120 or so march.

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent ... ontext=cmh has different truck losses and causes of loss.
The example was to show the state of even an elite formation (1 SS) being rebuilt on the western front. Obviously, they had other issues besides trucks.

I assume the '120 or so march' refers to the kilometers that the 12 SS Panthers had to perform before getting to the battle area? (June 8th). They were said to have fuel problems, whether that was from the start or along the way would be interesting. Technically, they may have been able to make the trip with full tanks initially, but getting close to empty...?

In any case, Arthur Gullachsen (the Canadian 'scholar'), is trying to support his argument that Panthers were reliable and only were destroyed by Canadian tanks and TDs...

Stiltzkin
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#161

Post by Stiltzkin » 22 Jan 2019, 20:40

Sadly, I could find no data for deliveries/losses in September, but by then, shortfalls were:
For September:

PKW (Verluste/Zugänge): 3,023/3,177 (1,620 Beute)
LKW: 5,215/3,472 (750)

Hanny
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#162

Post by Hanny » 23 Jan 2019, 11:21

Yoozername wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 19:05
I assume the '120 or so march' refers to the kilometers that the 12 SS Panthers had to perform before getting to the battle area? (June 8th). They were said to have fuel problems, whether that was from the start or along the way would be interesting. Technically, they may have been able to make the trip with full tanks initially, but getting close to empty...?
Info from https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent ... ontext=cmh gives me an approach march by road of 120klm over 2 days, and then 66 panthers refuelled. 20 klm distance left to assembly point for attack. lack of fuel delayed movement to assembly area.

Panther 720 litres fuel capacity gives it 200 km road operational range, 100klm of road. 3.6 litres a klm on road, 3.6*120=432 litre consumption per Panther.

If max/full fuel capacity at start 288 litres left. Operational range now 80klm, less 20 to assembly point. Hence it requires resupply.

To replace what was used in approach march is 432 lites *66=28512 liters, or 29 tons of fuel, or 10 trucks at 3 ton a truck.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#163

Post by Richard Anderson » 23 Jan 2019, 18:43

Stiltzkin wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 20:40
Sadly, I could find no data for deliveries/losses in September, but by then, shortfalls were:
For September:

PKW (Verluste/Zugänge): 3,023/3,177 (1,620 Beute)
LKW: 5,215/3,472 (750)
Thanks? Which file were they from? Do they include the other motor vehicle types?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Stiltzkin
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#164

Post by Stiltzkin » 23 Jan 2019, 21:41

Thanks? Which file were they from?
OKH doc, W.a.A Stab Ia, General des Kraftfahrwesens, available in, T 78 R145.
Do they include the other motor vehicle types?
Yes.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 'Ran out of fuel' excuse for defeat.

#165

Post by Richard Anderson » 23 Jan 2019, 21:52

Stiltzkin wrote:
23 Jan 2019, 21:41
Thanks? Which file were they from?
OKH doc, W.a.A Stab Ia, General des Kraftfahrwesens, available in, T 78 R145.
Do they include the other motor vehicle types?
Yes.
Thanks...now I get to figure out how I missed them. 0 :lol:
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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