Why didn't the Allies build their own 'tiger'?

[Michael Kenny]

You speak about "significant damage". That´s a very loose term compared to "penetration" and isn´t the same.

Semantics. The crew obviously thought it significant because they all exited and ran. You are concerned about a definition set by testers and I am only interested in counting undeniable holes or if you prefer 'added ventilation to the crew compartment'.

I count on that individual TIGER You mentioned at least eight frontal hit marks. 2/8 means that 75% of the hits didn´t result in appreciable damage with two other could be called "dangerous"

Again the crew thought otherwise. The Laison Letter dealing with this Tiger mistakenly refers to it twice and as two separate knock-outs but clearly the were confused.

The extract is of tank actions near RUARAY between 27 Jun. and 1 Jul.

SHERMAN - 75 MM GUNS.


4. Lt. Fearn engaged a PANTHER side on with his 75mm and APC
It was moving about 12mph at 80 yds range and he brewed it up with
one hit through the vertical plate above the back bogie
(NOTE: This is the Panther seen behind Tiger '114' in the photo)

He saw his Squadron Commander engage a Tiger ( previously
examined by us) on the road. At 120 yds the Tiger was head on.
The 75mm put 3 shots on it and the crew bailed out without firing.
He put in 3 more. The tank brewed up. Four shots had scooped on
front plates.One had taken a piece out of the lower edge of the mantlet
and gone into the tank through the roof,and one had ricocheted off the
track and up into the sponson.

At another Panther he fired 5 shots with HE. The enemy
made off without retaliation.


5. Sgt Dring started out south from FONTENOY LE PESNIL with
his 75mm and fell in with a MK IV which he shot through the drivors
visor. It brewed up and the crew baled out.

Next he fell in with a Tiger at 1000 yds. The Tiger fired whilst Dring
was traversing but missed. Dring then pumped 5 shots in without further
retaliation. The last one hit the drivers periscope and the crew baled out.
(this tank is believed to have been recovered for shipment to the UK.)

Next he came on a Panther at the cross roads, This he got with one shot
with APC in front of sprocket and the crew baled out. Hit at normal and at
about 500yds range. It brewed up

Next he took on a Tiger at 1400 yds just outside Rauray. He fired 6
shots of which 4 hit and the last one brewed it up. Tp. Cmdr. thought he had
missed it and only hit the wall behind. Sjt. Dring's next shot brought the
sparks and the remark "You don't see a brick wall spark like that".
This tank has been seen and is much shot up. It now has one scoop in front
vertical plate, five penetrations in rear, four strikes with no penetrations in rear,
plus a scoop and one plate of engine hatch smashed

The blue text is Tiger II4

I count 6 strikes. 4 clear (green) and two possible (red) but I am not too bothered about the number of hits so I will let you quibble in your damage-limation exercise. I will even give you the track hit that is not visible, +1 to you!

Now, one might throw in that one observation case of a TIGER 1 isn´t a sufficiently large sample size to arrive at any conclusions.

As I said earlier 2 examples. The second was a TII in December 1944.
Damaged so badly by a 'lucky shot' (which appears to a 'lucky shot' that duplicated one of the 'luck shots' that got Tiger I '114') that this is all they could do to it:

[Yoozername]

[Yoozername]

[Mobius]

I have an breakdown of this engagement on my website at:
http://panzer-war.com/page45.html
There were close to 50 Allied tanks, M10s with 17pdrs and numerous AT guns and they are all firing at a few targets and claiming KOs for themselves.
Plus I made a map. BTW, this area has Google Earth street views.

[Yoozername]

Thanks Mobius, it is certainly more objective to figure out what happened during the battle to include both side's recollections and reports.

[yantaylor]

It certainly looked like the Sherman's gave it to the Panzers at Fontenay, the count looks like three British to fifteen German, and I thought that Allied tanks were at a disadvantage

Yan.

[Michael Kenny]

Thanks Mobius, it is certainly more objective to figure out what happened during the battle to include both side's recollections and reports.

It certainly is. That is why I gave this detailed reply here in 2010 that included all the known Tiger crews accounts from these engagements.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 4#p1533454

I gave all this info to Mobius in a thread at TMP WW2 Forums in Sept/Oct 2014 and that is when he set up his page on Rauray.

This is his other page on these actions:

http://panzer-war.com/page46.html

[Michael Kenny]

There were close to 50 Allied tanks, M10s with 17pdrs and numerous AT guns and they are all firing at a few targets and claiming KOs for themselves.

Where can I read about these '50 Allied tanks, M10s with 17pdrs and numerous AT guns and they are all firing at a few targets and claiming KOs for themselves. '
Did you mean there was a full Regiment of Shermans (close to 50 tanks) attacking down the road from Fontenay into Rauray rather than 50 tanks were all firing at 'a few' German tanks?

I believe your claims about the M10s with 17pdrs is based on the IWM film that shows an M10 burning in the background.

This as on your site

http://panzer-war.com/Photos/ukm10.jpg





See Stuart Hill, By Tank Into Normandy.
Cassell 2002 ISBN 0304362166 page 107

It had been a great day. Thirteen Panzer Mark IVs had been knocked out, along with a Tiger and a Panther. The enemy tank force defending Rauray had been eliminated and their infantry overrun. Aggressive tactics had
paid off, and at relatively small cost to ourselves. C Squadron had lost two tanks, with two dead and two wounded. I felt encouraged by the way each squadron had performed and this was reflected in the general morale of my troop, in spite of the casualties. We had won a tank battle against significant opposition, and this gave our confidence an important boost.


12th SS alone had 37 Pz IV and 6 Panther casualties 26-27 June 1944. See page 75 of Szamveber's Waffen SS Armour In Normandy for the original wartime AARs.

[Michael Kenny]

There is an upcoming book on these battles

and it is set to become 'The' standard on the engagements. The detail within will amaze you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNby3aDnGNw

[Michael Kenny]

Film:



http://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/2669
http://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/2542
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmK5SY ... a&index=43

[Mobius]

There were close to 50 Allied tanks, M10s with 17pdrs and numerous AT guns and they are all firing at a few targets and claiming KOs for themselves.

Where can I read about these '50 Allied tanks, M10s with 17pdrs and numerous AT guns and they are all firing at a few targets and claiming KOs for themselves. '
Did you mean there was a full Regiment of Shermans (close to 50 tanks) attacking down the road from Fontenay into Rauray rather than 50 tanks were all firing at 'a few' German tanks?
I believe your claims about the M10s with 17pdrs is based on the IWM film that shows an M10 burning in the background.

What do you call 3 squadrons of 16 tanks each along with their HQ tanks? It's only math do it.
Hill mentions A and C squadrons but leaves out mention of B squadron.

Besides #114 did not have a chunk taken out of it's mantlet so that is the 2nd Tiger not the first.

John Semken was Squadron Leader and he had already heard from C
Squadron that there were tanks about, so his gun loader put an AP shell
up the spout, just in case. As they cleared Fontenay, they were suddenly
confronted by an enormous tank coming round the bend in front. It
was hard to know who was more surprised, but John shrieked, 'Fire,
it's a Hun', and they loosed off about ten rounds into the smoke.

5. Sgt Dring started out south from FONTENOY LE PESNIL with
his 75mm.....
Next he fell in with a Tiger at 1000 yds. The Tiger fired whilst Dring
was traversing but missed. Dring then pumped 5 shots in without further
retaliation. The last one hit the drivers periscope and the crew baled out.
(this tank is believed to have been recovered for shipment to the UK.)

So who killed the first Tiger? Was Sgt Dring in John Semken's tank? Both 1000 yds and 60 yds away? Quite a wide road if they are both on it.

4. Lt. Fearn engaged a PANTHER side on with his 75mm and APC
It was moving about 12mph at 80 yds range and he brewed it up with
one hit through the vertical plate above the back bogie

5. Sgt Dring started out south from FONTENOY LE PESNIL with
his 75mm and fell in with a MK IV which he shot through the drivors
visor. It brewed up and the crew baled out.

Next he came on a Panther at the cross roads, This he got with one shot
with APC in front of sprocket and the crew baled out. Hit at normal and at
about 500yds range. It brewed up

So this Panther moving by the cross-road. Which one got it in the side by the sprocket?

For Tiger 2 two also claim it.

He saw his Squadron Commander [Lt. Fearn] engage a Tiger ( previously
examined by us) on the road. At 120 yds the Tiger was head on.
The 75mm put 3 shots on it and the crew bailed out without firing.
He put in 3 more. The tank brewed up. Four shots had scooped on
front plates.One had taken a piece out of the lower edge of the mantlet
and gone into the tank through the roof,and one had ricocheted off the
track and up into the sponson.

Now this could be Mobius' Tiger. It was not just outside Rauray but inside. But maybe Dring means he was just outside Raury but 1400 yards doesn't seem to be just outside.
Next [Dring] he took on a Tiger at 1400 yds just outside Rauray. He fired 6
shots of which 4 hit and the last one brewed it up. Tp. Cmdr. thought he had
missed it and only hit the wall behind. Sgt. Dring's next shot brought the
sparks and the remark "You don't see a brick wall spark like that".
This tank has been seen and is much shot up. It now has one scoop in front
vertical plate, five penetrations in rear, four strikes with no penetrations in rear,
plus a scoop and one plate of engine hatch smashed.
It so the tank was facing away from the battle for some reason and was knocked out from the rear.

[Michael Kenny]

What do you call 3 squadrons of 16 tanks each along with their HQ tanks? It's only math do it.
Hill mentions A and C squadrons but leaves out mention of B squadron.

A Regimental attack but not an attack on a Tiger by a full Regiment. Its the usual way of explaining a Tiger demise-every Allied tank within a mile is included as an opponent.

Besides #114 did not have a chunk taken out of it's mantlet so that is the 2nd Tiger not the first..............


So who killed the first Tiger? Was Sgt Dring in John Semken's tank? Both 1000 yds and 60 yds away? Quite a wide road if they are both on it.............


So this Panther moving by the cross-road. Which one got it in the side by the sprocket?................

For Tiger 2 two also claim it...................

Fog of war. I am not too concerned about individual claims/total kills and who got what. I start from the 3 known Tiger wrecks and work backwards from the visible damage. Tiger 114 has a clear hit at the bottom of its mantlet under the MG port.

This is the Panther at the crossroads. Note the same man on the Tiger and behind the Panther and the penetration above the idler

IWM B6046

I am confident my previous identification of the 3 Tigers is correct and there is a report of July 31st that locates a further 2 Tiger wrecks (red circle) in a field north of Mouen

The 'fog of war' has infected this report as well because the Map Reference given above is off by one square to the left.
The 3RTR War Dairy entry also gives the 'wrong' map square (one square up) for these tanks.

screenshot.2018-04-21 (6)bn.jpg (20.81 KiB) Viewed 6722 times

How do I know the Map reference numbers are wrong?

Because I have an October 1945 air view where some of the wrecks are still in situ. Unfortunately cover ends just before it reaches the location given for the 2 Tigers!

Errors are normal and trying to discredit the big picture because of small detail errors is a mistake.

[Yoozername]

Amazing how the thread gets completely off-topic. Hmm, I see a trend...

The OP inquired about about the Allies manufacturing Tiger tanks. Basically, most people gave valid reasons why it would not have been possible, or why it was just not a good idea. The fact that the Tiger I was considered, even by the Germans, to be at its end-of-life, sort of makes this a moot point (making Tiger I's in Detroit).

How the thread gets off topic, and what even is the point of this is, seems to be a recurring issue. Maybe the moderator can comment on this?

[Mobius]

I can't match the locations of any of Kenny's recent map with a location on the aforementioned battle area. Unless the drawn map is all wrong. And let's hear more about these rocket attacks by aircraft.

[David Thompson]

Uncivil posts from Michael Kenny and Yoozername were removed pursuant to the thread warning previously posted at https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 2#p2135112.