Jagdtiger - were any actually armed with 88?

[A McAuslan]

Thanks Christian, I have no problems in accepting 11 Porsche suspension (2 of which were the original prototypes) and production total at least 77. (You will note when I 'rubbished' the 25 with 88 mm suggestion it was 77 that I took as total production.) I must admit I am impressed that with the state of the German Nation in 1945 the production records are as complete as you are able to provide. Thank you.
Sandy McAuslan

[spannermann]

Hi,
Excuse me repeating myself, but 77, yes of course, but do not forget that no 83 (Fg Nr 305083) is still in the Kublinka museum, and that one was completed, left the factory and was used, and there were others, complete vehicles, behind it that were destroyed in the factory yard, at least 8 apparently.

So 77 is conservative at best.

cheers leonard paul

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

You assume that the vehicles left the factory in chassis number order.

According to Dewey, the Jagdtiger in Kubinka is one of four completed by 15 April. The issue record in his book seems one Jagdtiger short, but regardless of this one vehicle, if they were issued in number order, it could not have been higher than 305081. In fact, on page 279, Dewey states that the Jagdtigers armed with the 88 mm gun were chassis numbers 305078 through 305081, while the April production of 128 mm Jagdtigers were chassis numbers 305082 through 305084.

Dewey's account of the destroyed Jagdtigers also show that they had not been completed, in that they had no gun sights. There is also some doubt in the account whether there were seven or eight vehicles. Finally, the extent to which the account is based on contemporary sources, ad opposed to post-war statements by Knippenberg, is unclear.

[A McAuslan]

Thanks again Leonard Paul and Christian. Would it therefore be a fair summary that a consensus could be reached at not less than 77 completed and issued to troops. Additional units were completed or nearing completion at the very last days but the 88 mm units were lacking gunsights and were never issued to operational units and probably destroyed in the factory along with other unissued units. In probability some 84 units were either completed, or very nearly completed, in total.
Sandy McAuslan.
My thanks to all who have contributed.

[Yoozername]

I think I have read that the reason for trying to use the 88mm was because the Soviets had over run the manufacturing location for the 128mm ? I have also read that gun sights were an issue as far as other weapon systems manufacture. In...

https://www.amazon.com/Panzerjager-Tank ... 1572490748

...the author, who had antitank gun experience, was offered service in a AFV but it had no sights. I forget what AFV it was(Tiger?), but apparently there was a shortage of sights. He ended up in a French halftrack and ended the war in it. An odd book but it includes some great details.

Tigers in the Mud includes Carius' command of these heavy AFV, and while the gun was good, they seem to suffer from the usual heavy tanks reliability issues. Carius, who had experience in turreted AFV, did not seem to care much for a limited traverse weapon. And he lamented the inexperience and training of the late war crews.

IMO, it would have been better to just keep the Tiger II and JagdTiger together in a unit. Maybe two companies of Tiger II and one of JagdTiger. Just for the sake of maintenance and commonality of parts if nothing else.

[raspagliosi]

Please note that the recent Panzer Tracts 23 "Panzer Production" specifies a total of about 85 jagdtigers completed up to april 1945, Fgst.Nr.Serie 305001-350085

[Jon Bailey]

Hi there, I have no skin in this game other than I personally don’t believe any Jagd Tiger was ever equipped with an 8.8cm L/71.
However the argument now seems to rest on the fact that they were built but had no sights and were therefore not used….. The nor gun Jad Tiger used the all new W.Z.F. (winkelzielfernrohr) sight. This sight was to be the new ‘all-gun’ sight for all tank and anti-tank guns. The exact same sight would be used for a 128mm or an 88mm gun, the only difference is the range scale (a circular card) was replaced for which ever gun was being used. The Germans certainly made 88mm cards as the example tested in the report I have shows an 88mm range card in the W.Z.F. so sights were available as far as I can tell.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Being available somewhere doesn't mean being available at the factory.

I'm curious as to why you don't think any Jagdtigers were built with the 88 mm gun?

[A McAuslan]

I know that a lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack. However the absence, so far as I am concerned of any illustration of an 88mm armed vehicle, when the US Army in particular seemed totally committed to photographing every Jagtiger they encountered, made me wonder if it was a myth. Your own provision of construction numbers, for which once again I am truly grateful, convinces me that there is a high degree of probability that they were at least in an advanced state of construction. However their non appearance in the photographic record makes me doubt that they were ever operational units. (I have often been accused of being a natural pessimist.) I would love to see a unit with the 88mm - though I would suspect it would be the Jadgpanther variant with mantlet rather than the Tiger variant that would be used.
Sandy McAuslan

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

That would certainly fit within Dewey's account, both in regards to the records and Knippenberg's statements (whenever they may have been made).

There is a fairly extensive photographic record of Jagdtigers, though the novelty of an 88 mm armed one might not have been as great to the average GI as it is to us. There also seem to be a lack of photographic recprds of Nibelungenwerk, which is quite unfortunate. Many other works were described quite extensively after being captured, but this seems to have been an exception (at least to my knowledge).

[yantaylor]

Maybe the 88mm versions where only used against the Russians.
I would guess that when the Soviets tried to encircle Berlin that the Germans would throw anything they had against them including WW1 stuff.

Yan.

[Michael Kenny]

I read years back that Devy's book has a number of errors.

[yantaylor]

Where is Hilary Doyle when you need him
He was on the TV today in Combat Dealers and was on the money with his answers.

Yan.

[Miles Krogfus]

See my March 22, 2017 post: "Jagd-Tigers for the 501 SS s.Pz.Abt."