88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

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BDV
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88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by BDV » 03 Oct 2018 12:11

Are there any obvious reasons why the 88mm gun of Tiger I was not ported to tank destroyers?

It was shorter than the 75mm L70 by 32 cm, and that could've helped with the nose heavy problems of Jagdpanzer IV; while providing a bigger HE.
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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Alejandro_ » 03 Oct 2018 13:27

Are there any obvious reasons why the 88mm gun of Tiger I was not ported to tank destroyers?

It was shorter than the 75mm L70 by 32 cm, and that could've helped with the nose heavy problems of Jagdpanzer IV; while providing a bigger HE.
I would say internal space. 88L56 needed a 1900mm turret, while Panther was 1650mm.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by critical mass » 03 Oct 2018 13:57

Jagdpanzer required anti tank weapons. 88 L/56 was a GP gun with inferior AP performance to the 75/70.
Also, the 88/L56 C/36 was an old model gun, patterned after the 88mm FLAK /18. Quite heavy, too.
The 88L/56 might better be considered as a gun upgrade for assault guns, where the additional HE performance might come in handy. However, the 105mm StuH42 can do everything better than the 88L/56 on lighter weight, except for long range anti tank accuracy.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Oct 2018 14:10

^
Good post, said it better than I could. The L/70 was better than the 88 in AP performance and inferior in HE. The 88 was also very heavy. Anti-tank capabilities were clamored for by Infantry divisions and this eventually reached higher ups. This lead to the allocation of SP AT guns and tank destroyers in the PzJ battalions of infantry divisions. Prior to this, the stug and other AT battalions were held as Korps assets.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Yoozername » 03 Oct 2018 17:21

The Flak 18/36 never made it into a 'Marder/Hornet' type application. The FlaK 18 never had a Pak type field mount either. Also the Tiger I weapon never made it into a StuK platform since the Hornet (Nashorn) was really fielded around the same time as the Tiger I's came online. The Elephant version of the 88mmL71 coming out later. Tiger I production was very slow initially and I wonder if the guns production could be handled for another AFV 88mmL56.

I have always wondered why the Germans didn't just use the Tiger I chassis as a JagdTiger I (88mmL71). The armor being sloped similarly to the jagdpanther. But, I guess they had a bad experience with the Elephant TD.

For those Panzer Division with Tiger I's integral, the unique ammunition was a further drain on supply capabilities. Basically, the best use of Tiger Is was in separate battalions.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Oct 2018 17:46

^
Hermann Balck, in his interviews presented the view the Tiger battalions were a mistake and should have been incooperated into Panzer divisions. He cited the support services and tactical use

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by critical mass » 03 Oct 2018 17:46

TIGER 1 did use ordinary FLAK ammunition, too.
While FLAK ammo used a different primer, they issued inleys for them.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Yoozername » 03 Oct 2018 18:15

The Tiger I AP projectile was designed for it. One of the reasons being the FlaK AP would strike the muzzle brake. So, technically, the FlaK later used the Tiger I 'ammunition'. I would assume that manufacturing of the 8,8 cm Pzgr 39 ammunition would primarily have been used by the Tiger I before production could catch up to supply the FlaK weapons.

The Tiger I had electrical primers, and the FlaK had percussion primers, since they screwed out, one could swap them, but from a supply standpoint, one needs to have this work performed before delivery to the respective end-users. I would not expect tank crews or FlaK crews to do this work.

Interestingly, ammunition that could be shared, such as 7,5 cm Pzgr 39 for the KWK 40 weapons, StuK 40 or Pak 39, is stenciled as such. On the crates and also the 'brass' itself.

From a production standpoint, the actual projectiles were eventually common as far as Pzgr 39 and HE, though I have never read of a Tiger using the FlaK fuses (which might have been a neat trick). I believe that Tiger I HE might have been painted green and the FlaK had the typical yellow?

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Alejandro_ » 03 Oct 2018 23:34

Good post, said it better than I could. The L/70 was better than the 88 in AP performance and inferior in HE. The 88 was also very heavy.


Are there any data comparing the weights? It is a difficuly comparison because it is very easy to end up comparing apples with oranges.

Regarding AP performance, I vaguely remember than against sloped armour (or at long ranges?), 88L56 could be more efficient.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by critical mass » 04 Oct 2018 12:54

From a production standpoint, the actual projectiles were eventually common as far as Pzgr 39 and HE, though I have never read of a Tiger using the FlaK fuses (which might have been a neat trick). I believe that Tiger I HE might have been painted green and the FlaK had the typical yellow?
according to:
gg15253/43, originally clasified SECRET,

"Tiger Abt. 502 hat nur Flak-Mun. für Kw.K. verwandt (einges. elektr. Zünder) (...)"

Heavy Abt. 502 used exclusively 88mm FLAK ammunition (both AP and HE) in early 1943. As mentioned previously, they used electric inley primers ("einges. elektr. Züner") when using FLAK ammo instead of KWK ammo.

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by peeved » 04 Oct 2018 17:19

Alejandro_ wrote:
03 Oct 2018 23:34
Good post, said it better than I could. The L/70 was better than the 88 in AP performance and inferior in HE. The 88 was also very heavy.


Are there any data comparing the weights? It is a difficuly comparison because it is very easy to end up comparing apples with oranges.
According to "Merkblatt für das waffentechnische Personal der Panzer-Einheiten" the weights for 8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 / 7,5 cm Kw.K. 42 were (in kgs)
Rohr mit Verschluß: 1330 / 1000,
Geschütz, vollständig: 1760 / 1860 and
Waffenblende mit Geschütz: 3100 / 2650.

Markus

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Yoozername » 04 Oct 2018 17:38

Color photo from collector showing original colors.
88mm.jpg
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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Tony Williams » 05 Oct 2018 04:58

If you look at the picture of German and British tank ammo below, you can see that the 8,8 cm L/56 (88 x 571R) round, while being slightly longer overall than the 7,5 cm L/70 (75 x 640R), is actually more slender. No reason why an 88 mm gun would be any heavier or more difficult to mount in a turret than the 75 mm, given guns designed to the same standards.

Image

The 88 mm would have made a better general-purpose tank gun, with much better HE performance and adequate AP, but not quite so good for an AT gun or tank destroyer which is only concerned with punching holes in armour.
Military Guns & Ammunition website http://quarryhs.co.uk

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Oct 2018 05:54

Illustrated History of the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 202
by Norbert Számvéber

Has an interesting analysis of one of the most experienced Stug units. I see these as fairly inter-changeable in the defensive role as the Jadpanzer companies of infantry divisions. From my notes:

-12% of Stug 202's targets were AFVs. So unlike what I also assumed, combat against soft targets and expenditure of HE was very high. The book also, IIRC, identified the exact number of shells expended.

-Stug 202's primary tasks:

1. support planned infantry attacks

2. support short ranged assaults

3. support counterthrusts against enemy penetrations

4. support Panzer divisions

5. combat recon in mixed formations

6. combat recon, assigned to an advance squad

7. in static battles, destroy enemy support weapons and bunkers

8. "tank killing" (as in, move in, open fire, and turn disabled enemy AFVs into write-offs)

9. Repulsing enemy tank attacks from HKL (main combat line)

10. Hunt down enemy AFVs that have penetrated the depths of German defenses. Act as mobile AT reserve.

"I've made to about Dec 1942 for Stug 202, in which the Stug 202 is involved in the heaviest defensive combat it had ever experienced up to this point (against Operation Mars) against massed infantry and armor.

Of note is that the unit is still using short barrelled 75mm guns and as not upgraded to the 105mm Stuh and long 75mms yet.

It claims numerous T-34 kills with the short 75mm but the overwhelming bulk of its 1,000 claims is clearly from 1943-1945 as Stug 202's tank kills claims are relatively small in 1941-1942.

It expends a lot of HE- individual Stugs fire up to 100-200 rounds a heavy day's combat."

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Re: 88 L56 as Jagdpanzer weapon

Post by Yoozername » 05 Oct 2018 06:59

I would consider jagdpanzer 'candidates' to be AFV like jagdpanzer IV, 'Hetzer', and possibly the StuG III and IV. We can probably throw out the Hetzer given it's barely housing a Pak 39, and incapable of mounting a StuK 42. It already suffered from being nose-heavy.

Mounting a 88mm L56 in any of the other AFV means building a 'StuK' type mount. The Flak mount is obviously too big, and it takes some rearrangement of other systems in the weapon to fit it in a jagdpanzer. A concern with the StuG vehicles is that the recoil mechanisms are already protruding outside the afv in an armored enclosure. Likewise, the recoil mechanisms can not be situated the same as in a panzer with a wide turret. It isn't as easy as people think. In my opinion, it could possibly be made to work in a StuG IV or JagdPanzer IV. But, again, why? The Germans clearly skipped over the 88mm L56 KWK, and it never was built in great numbers.

The Germans never built a ground mount or Marder mount for the 7,5 cm L70 weapon either. Basically they went with Pak 40 and Pak 43. Go figure...

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