Tankers Without Tanks
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
GERMAN TANK MAINTENANCE IN WORLD WAR II
IV. The Casual Company
In Russia, where operations extended over great distances, the Germans
experienced the need for closer control over the crews of disabled
tanks. The tank crews usually remained at the field repair shop
until the repairs to their vehicles had been completed. The unannounced
arrival of replacements presented another personnel problem
because tank company commanders were often unable to take charge
of the new men while operations were under way. On such occasions
these replacements were temporarily attached to the field repair shops,
where they, as well as the crews of disabled tanks, constituted an administrative
liability for the tank maintenance companies.
The number of tank personnel immobilized while awaiting repairs
to their vehicles at the field repair shop averaged from 80 to 100 men.
The commander of the maintenance company had to provide them
with quarters and rations, in addition to keeping them occupied. During
the winter months the administrative problem was aggravated by
the scarcity of heated billets.
While the tank drivers were able to assist in minor repair work,
an attempt was made to keep the other crew members busy with first
echelon maintenance of their vehicle. As a rule, however, the crew
members would stand around and interfere with the work of the shop
personnel.
Starting in 1943, some commanders of tank regiments organized
casual companies to take care of tank crews at the field repair shops
and replacements arriving from the zone. of interior. The casual
company of the tank regiment was set up next to the field repair shop
so that closer supervision could be exercised over the activities of its
personnel.
The commander of the tank regiment assigned a qualified line officer
to command the casual company, which represented the manpower
reserve pool of the regiment. The casual company commander was
responsible for the welfare of crews awaiting repairs of their vehicles,
the supervision and training of extra tank crews and replacements,
and the security of the field repair shop. The accomplishment of
these duties required special ability and experience, and casual company
commanders were therefore exempted from reassignment whenever
possible. During extended periods of inactivity, casual companies
were sometimes deactivated.
During the later phases of the Russian campaign when the fortunes
of war turned against Germany, tank personnel showed a tendency
toward considering the field repair shop as a place of quiet and therefore
as a desirable refuge. Since certain tank crews brought in their
vehicles more often than others, maintenance company commanders
were requested to investigate the causes of unusually frequent mechanical
breakdowns. Moreover, to promote strict discipline, commanders
of tank maintenance companies would usually authorize only
the tank drivers to assist with the repair work, while the other crew
members and incoming replacements attended training courses.
IV. The Casual Company
In Russia, where operations extended over great distances, the Germans
experienced the need for closer control over the crews of disabled
tanks. The tank crews usually remained at the field repair shop
until the repairs to their vehicles had been completed. The unannounced
arrival of replacements presented another personnel problem
because tank company commanders were often unable to take charge
of the new men while operations were under way. On such occasions
these replacements were temporarily attached to the field repair shops,
where they, as well as the crews of disabled tanks, constituted an administrative
liability for the tank maintenance companies.
The number of tank personnel immobilized while awaiting repairs
to their vehicles at the field repair shop averaged from 80 to 100 men.
The commander of the maintenance company had to provide them
with quarters and rations, in addition to keeping them occupied. During
the winter months the administrative problem was aggravated by
the scarcity of heated billets.
While the tank drivers were able to assist in minor repair work,
an attempt was made to keep the other crew members busy with first
echelon maintenance of their vehicle. As a rule, however, the crew
members would stand around and interfere with the work of the shop
personnel.
Starting in 1943, some commanders of tank regiments organized
casual companies to take care of tank crews at the field repair shops
and replacements arriving from the zone. of interior. The casual
company of the tank regiment was set up next to the field repair shop
so that closer supervision could be exercised over the activities of its
personnel.
The commander of the tank regiment assigned a qualified line officer
to command the casual company, which represented the manpower
reserve pool of the regiment. The casual company commander was
responsible for the welfare of crews awaiting repairs of their vehicles,
the supervision and training of extra tank crews and replacements,
and the security of the field repair shop. The accomplishment of
these duties required special ability and experience, and casual company
commanders were therefore exempted from reassignment whenever
possible. During extended periods of inactivity, casual companies
were sometimes deactivated.
During the later phases of the Russian campaign when the fortunes
of war turned against Germany, tank personnel showed a tendency
toward considering the field repair shop as a place of quiet and therefore
as a desirable refuge. Since certain tank crews brought in their
vehicles more often than others, maintenance company commanders
were requested to investigate the causes of unusually frequent mechanical
breakdowns. Moreover, to promote strict discipline, commanders
of tank maintenance companies would usually authorize only
the tank drivers to assist with the repair work, while the other crew
members and incoming replacements attended training courses.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
Hi Yoozername,
A particularly interesting post, because it deals with a little studied area and adds human interest.
That, I presume, was the standard procedure. It certainly makes logical sense that under normal circumstances this would be so.
Cheers,
Sid.
A particularly interesting post, because it deals with a little studied area and adds human interest.
That, I presume, was the standard procedure. It certainly makes logical sense that under normal circumstances this would be so.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
Hi Juha,
As with Cult Iron's claim, yours lacks any source or specifics.
Can you give us details of the circumstances in which tank crews with the 1st or 6th Panzer Divisions served in ad hoc infantry companies during the winter 1941/42?
Thanks,
Sid.
As with Cult Iron's claim, yours lacks any source or specifics.
Can you give us details of the circumstances in which tank crews with the 1st or 6th Panzer Divisions served in ad hoc infantry companies during the winter 1941/42?
Thanks,
Sid.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
The US Army was different in that if your disabled tank took too many days to fix, you lost it. That means you had to go to the repairs yard and pick one that was available. US Tankers were picky about what Sherman they liked. Some liked one gun or another, many liked the Ford V8, some liked cast armor, etc. The Germans did not have this 'surplus' of repaired spares, or replacements.
The German system of mixing new recruits and tank-less tankers in the casual company, and having them do training, etc., must have had a good effect. The vets could check out the newbies and think about using them to replace a lost crewmen. The new guys could get some experience and knowledge and ease their introduction into the regiment.
The German system of mixing new recruits and tank-less tankers in the casual company, and having them do training, etc., must have had a good effect. The vets could check out the newbies and think about using them to replace a lost crewmen. The new guys could get some experience and knowledge and ease their introduction into the regiment.
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
But if a panzer regiment is committed to battle, the best place for tankers to be is not team building, its fighting. I guess if few tanks are available to be issued as replacements then having them integrate or train or help with maintenance is better then nothing.Yoozername wrote: ↑25 Oct 2018, 20:26The US Army was different in that if your disabled tank took too many days to fix, you lost it. That means you had to go to the repairs yard and pick one that was available. US Tankers were picky about what Sherman they liked. Some liked one gun or another, many liked the Ford V8, some liked cast armor, etc. The Germans did not have this 'surplus' of repaired spares, or replacements.
The German system of mixing new recruits and tank-less tankers in the casual company, and having them do training, etc., must have had a good effect. The vets could check out the newbies and think about using them to replace a lost crewmen. The new guys could get some experience and knowledge and ease their introduction into the regiment.
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
When I have time I'll check. But sources were Stoves, 1. Panzer Division 1935 - 1945 and the other Paul, BrennpunkteSid Guttridge wrote: ↑25 Oct 2018, 18:54Hi Juha,
As with Cult Iron's claim, yours lacks any source or specifics.
Can you give us details of the circumstances in which tank crews with the 1st or 6th Panzer Divisions served in ad hoc infantry companies during the winter 1941/42?
Thanks,
Sid.
. BTW, Scheibert, Die 6. Panzer-Division 1937-1945, this is mostly photobook, one caption "A lack of Panzer led to the formation of the "Anhalt Battalion" out of Pazer Regiment 11...Later, the battalion under Captain Glässgen also paricipated in infantry actions." Same Die deutschen Panzerdivision im Bild series, not the proper divisionhistory with same name mentioned above, Stoves, 1. Panzer Division 1935 - 1945 p. 145 caption "Gegenangriff gegen westl. von RSHEW-SZYTSCHEWKA durchgebrochene 2 sowj Korps...Die Masse der Panzer-Besatzungen kämpfte zu Fuss, als Infanterie..."
Juha
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
I am not a retiree with vast swathes of free time. I've done the work, and given my opinion. Maybe you should start reading more about these subjects so your posts would actually have some kind of educational content and you would cease asking these silly questions?Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑25 Oct 2018, 16:19Hi Cult Icon,
It looks as though it is up to you to be more specific with your sources.
As stated earlier, you aren't in the position to make any demands, or any demands on my time. or send me a sizable check....
Last edited by Cult Icon on 26 Oct 2018, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
I think you are being too theoretical when the resources are out there. The panzer division histories of G.D., 3.Pz, 23.Pz, 24.Pz (D of a LH) have some concrete examples IIRC.Yoozername wrote: ↑25 Oct 2018, 17:07
If anything, I would expect a 'tankless-tankman' to be better used for a crew served weapon like a captured enemy antitank gun, etc. It is an incredible waste to use a highly trained tanker, especially drivers, in an infantry role. Of course, being encircled brings out desperate measures.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
So, I am a retiree with vast swathes of free time? LOL!
I think most people would disagree with the word 'constantly'....I am sure there are examples, but that does not prove the rule.
I think most people would disagree with the word 'constantly'....I am sure there are examples, but that does not prove the rule.
Panzer crews were constantly used as infantry in the war to supplement the weak infantry strengths.
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
Not talking to you but Sid, who frequently demands that people invest hours and hours of their time....while not putting up anything himself. I don't think I've ever read a Sid post that wasn't a waste of time.
But you know what I mean though? Common enough.
But you know what I mean though? Common enough.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
No one is required to post swathes of proof but if a book is referenced then at least a page number is required.Cult Icon wrote: ↑26 Oct 2018, 15:00I am not a retiree with vast swathes of free time. I've done the work, and given my opinion. Maybe you should start reading more about these subjects so your posts would actually have some kind of educational content and you would cease asking these silly questions?
As stated earlier, you aren't in the position to make any demands, or any demands on my time. or send me a sizable check....
viewtopic.php?t=53962
E. Questions, Claims and Proof
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
^
you and Sid have been on my ignore list since 2014 (anti-internet troll policy)
you and Sid have been on my ignore list since 2014 (anti-internet troll policy)
Last edited by Cult Icon on 26 Oct 2018, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
Second reference in the thread (with page number) showing crew would stay with the damaged tanks and that using sick and wounded men for this task was not allowed.
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Re: Tankers Without Tanks
More from The Department Of The Army Pamphlet no. 20-202 GERMAN TANK MAINTENANCE IN WORLD WAR II of June 1954
Re: Tankers Without Tanks
According to Jentz, Panzertruppen 1 p. 221 it was a norm during the winter 41/42 to use tankless tankmen as infantry. "...Instead of pulling out and being refurbished, the Panzer-Divisins remained in the front lines and the crews without Panzers were employed as infantry..."