Tankers Without Tanks

[Richard Anderson]

Hello Michael
it seems to have been a norm amongst the 19 PzDivs on the Eastern Front during the winter 1941/42 just because the front was collapsing, decisive lack of infantry and little hope of substantial number of replacement tanks. It was 80s when I went through numerous PzD histories and I cannot recall for sure what happened during the winter of 42-43.

If you piece together the fragments of information in Jentz and Forzcyk along with the units histories in Lexikon, it appears the consequence of the policy of keeping crews in action as ad hoc infantry during the winter of 41/42 was the reshuffling of units in the spring of 1942 in preparation for BLAU. There simply weren't enough trained crew, including replacements and those drawn from the Ersatzheer and occupation units in France, so many divisions continued to make do with single-battalion regiments. The reaction to the losses of the winter of 42/43 were different though. Many regiments reduced to single-battalions again and sent the excess personnel to Germany for reconstitution as Panther battalions, some of them then settling in for a long wait.

Meanwhile there were no doubt many individual exceptions to the overall policy.

[Juha]

Hello Sid
6. PzD had had Pz 35(t)s its main tank plus Pz IVs but was in practice tankless by the beginning of Dec 41 but there was no infantry formations to relieve it. The tankmen battalion was at first used to build defence positions but later also as infantry. The reasons were desperate situation and lack of proper infantry. One could not hold a line only with artillery and signal units. IMHO the German behaviour was not very surprising, Germans were more ready to use specialists as infantry in emergencies than Anglo-Americans, look e.g. their use of Pionieers vs use of sappers/combat engineers.
1. PzD fougt Rzhev bulge area, very confused fighting, same reasons as with the 6. Pz but I cannot recall how the 1. Pz organized it tankless tankmen, stayed they with the regiment and formed with the few remaining tanks KGs for counterattacks or an independent battalion used as the division ordered holding a line and making local counterattacks. I already returned the mostly photobooks to my attic and my active PzDivs history studies time was in 80s. But Stoves proper division history and Paul's book are thorough, Stoves' IIRC with some 550 pages.

Juha

[Yoozername]

Sorry, but what was that proof of again? The "other thread" was about shooting until the tank "changed shape" or "burned" wasn't it? Very good, you've established that the Germans and Soviets did try to establish a criteria for that. Thank you and congratulations on finding the directive.

Oh, you are so welcome. Hopefully, you don't feel you got 'sucked into' giving a lame apology.

The reaction to the losses of the winter of 42/43 were different though. Many regiments reduced to single-battalions again and sent the excess personnel to Germany for reconstitution as Panther battalions, some of them then settling in for a long wait.

Woh! Maybe you want to supply a source on that? 'Excess' personnel? They sent a battalion, typically the Panzer III battalion (after giving up it's Panzer IIIs), and they were re-equipped with Panthers and trained. The Panzer regiments didn't send the Panzer regiments 'excess'.

In any case, the supposed OP was specifically discussing Normandy. I have my copy 'Panzer Ace' back, it is mostly about the author's experience with Tigers (that is, in Normandy), I will reread it, but I am fairly sure that crews were not thrown together and given infantry weapons to man the line.

[Juha]

Hello Michael
it seems to have been a norm amongst the 19 PzDivs on the Eastern Front during the winter 1941/42 just because the front was collapsing, decisive lack of infantry and little hope of substantial number of replacement tanks. It was 80s when I went through numerous PzD histories and I cannot recall for sure what happened during the winter of 42-43.

If you piece together the fragments of information in Jentz and Forzcyk along with the units histories in Lexikon, it appears the consequence of the policy of keeping crews in action as ad hoc infantry during the winter of 41/42 was the reshuffling of units in the spring of 1942 in preparation for BLAU. There simply weren't enough trained crew, including replacements and those drawn from the Ersatzheer and occupation units in France, so many divisions continued to make do with single-battalion regiments. The reaction to the losses of the winter of 42/43 were different though. Many regiments reduced to single-battalions again and sent the excess personnel to Germany for reconstitution as Panther battalions, some of them then settling in for a long wait.

Meanwhile there were no doubt many individual exceptions to the overall policy.

The other reason why the non-Blau PzDivs became single Pz-battalion formations was the lack of panzers. If one looks their equipment most didn't got even a single Pz III(lg) or Pz IV(lg) at least up to late summer 1942. They had to manage with Pz III(kz)s and Pz IV(kz)s as main battle tanks, e.g. 1. PzD got even some 38(t)s somewhere, maybe from 7. PzD which was one of few PzDs sent to France to be re-equipped during spring 42, 6. PzD was also sent to France.

[Richard Anderson]

Exactly.

[Cult Icon]

Since it has been brought up in this thread regarding providing information regarding backing up posts people make, I will say that I support it. Making a across the board statement especially regarding 'constancy' of a SOP is clearly in need of backing up.

Perhaps, although that would exclude a lot of input as it would multiply the time commitment many times. Some of the dynamics of the war are not easy to "back up" like an academic paper given the chaotic nature of it all. Some insights can appear intuitively via long experience, logic, and/or education though the building of a mental model and running it through you analytical skills. Academics and advisors don't do what executives and leaders do for a reason.

The Germans had a name for something related to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerspitzengef%C3%BChl

People of little intuition and narrow focus are often considered those on the spectrum- autistic, asperger's syndrome, the "male" brain. Stereotypically you have mathematicians, computer programmers, and technicians in this category.

Probably best to be humble and see certain complex realities as forever elusive.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Cult Icon,

You post, "Some insights can appear intuitively via long experience, logic, and/or education through the building of a mental model and running it through your analytical skills".

Is this what you claim you are doing in this particular case?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Michael Kenny]

Perhaps, although that would exclude a lot of input as it would multiply the time commitment many times. .

When a source is given then it can be checked. It might be circular referencing or 2 references that turn out to be the second being a retelling of the first.

Examples such as this
viewtopic.php?p=2050868#p2050868

[Yoozername]

People of little intuition and narrow focus are often considered those on the spectrum- autistic, asperger's syndrome, the "male" brain. Stereotypically you have mathematicians, computer programmers, and technicians in this category.

Probably best to be humble and see certain complex realities as forever elusive.

If it is Ok by you, I will now address you by the name ' Constance'. It is so fitting, so absolutely funny, and...well...given your 'behavior', and awful use of psychology, brutally fitting. I almost pity you...Constance...

[Yoozername]

Panzer crews were constantly used as infantry in the war to supplement the weak infantry strengths.

Constance

Please provide any documentation you can share regarding your statement. And, since you are escaping into the ether, maybe you can come back to the terra firma? What, exactly, do you consider infantry? Replacing the panzergrenadiers? Filling out some suspected Infantry Division shortcomings? Maybe riding along on trains through Partisan infected swamps?

Thank you, Constance... Feel free to share the 'intuitions'....

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... =Constance

YN

[Juha]

Hello again Sid
looked again Stoves' photobook (Rolf O. G. Stoves, Die 1. Panzer-Division 1935 - 1945, Podzun - Verlag Dorheim / H. no date but after May 1974, date of the newest photo in the book) because it also has some short text chapters p. 115 the tankless crews were used to form two Ski-Infantry Coys, which seems to indicate that they were used as patrol and counter-attack force (better mobility than footsoldiers had in the snow and could, at least in princible, counter Soviet ski patrols).

Btw, while this photobook has 200 pages the proper history has 882 pages, it is thicker than I remembered.

Juha

[Hoover]

In June 1944 the flow of replacement tanks were still sufficient. So I think that the tank crews would be saved because trained crews were highly valuable. Only if there were no replacement tanks in sight the crews were as infantry, like in Russia or the west to the end of the war or in special situation, like Stalingrad, Northern Afrika 1943. No tank unit leader would waste his crews if he hasd a chance for new tanks to be manned.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Juha,

Thanks for more hard information and sources.

Am I right in thinking that all your examples refer to the winter of 1941/42?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Juha]

Hello Sid
Yes, the winter of 1941/42.

Juha

[Richard Anderson]

Woh! Maybe you want to supply a source on that? 'Excess' personnel? They sent a battalion, typically the Panzer III battalion (after giving up it's Panzer IIIs), and they were re-equipped with Panthers and trained. The Panzer regiments didn't send the Panzer regiments 'excess'.

I rather thought that when I said they reduced to a single-battalion regiment and sent the excess personnel to Germany that it would be clear they sent the "excess" battalion?

So which "Panzer III Battalions" would those be? The Panzer-Abteilung until late 1943 was a mixed battalion, typically with two leichte and one mittlere Panzerkompanie. The leichte Kompanie was comprised of Panzer II (le. Zug) and Panzer III (1., 2., 3. Zug), while the mittlere Kompanie was comprised of Panzer II (le. Zug) and Panzer IV (1., 2., 3. Zug). When the excess returned to Germany it was without any of their tanks, Panzer II, III, IV, and Befehlspanzer or heavy equipment...they were ordered by OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. to return "als Personaleinheit", i.e. as a "personnel unit". The first two Panther units formed were drawn from the excess personnel of I./Panzerregiment 15. and II./Panzerregiment 33. They also organized as four-kompanie Abteilungen rather than three-kompanie as before, which became a feature of the re-organization in late 1943, when the Panzerregiment was notionally divided into a "Panther Abteilung" and a "Panzer IV Abteilung".

Anyway, references? Sure., Thomas Jentz, Panzertruppen, V. I, pp. 214-219, Thomas Jentz, Panther, pp. 130, 134, 142-143, 147-150, 152-153, and seriatim, http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm, and http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/ ... uppenteile.

In any case, the supposed OP was specifically discussing Normandy. I have my copy 'Panzer Ace' back, it is mostly about the author's experience with Tigers (that is, in Normandy), I will reread it, but I am fairly sure that crews were not thrown together and given infantry weapons to man the line.

I doubt that was the case either.