Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

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MarkN
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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#76

Post by MarkN » 20 Sep 2019, 17:20

peeved wrote:
20 Sep 2019, 16:48
MarkN wrote:
20 Sep 2019, 14:36
This second image is an extract from the 4th Guards Tank Brigade narrative of the battle 5-15 July 1943. It is a map showing the efforts of part of their forces for 8 July 1943. How can it be that they are counter-attacking out of Teterevino (ТЕТЕРЕВИНО) westwards towards the German held Necaevka (НЕЧАЕВКА) on the 8th when Das Reich claim to have taken the place the day before??
There appears to be a strike-over on the map day (7 over 8 or 8 over 7).
Make up your own mind.

There are several pencil annotations on the map showing time/date. Two mention 8.7.43, none mention 7.7.43
The narrative going that the map illustrates is found in the part dated 8.7.43 not the 7.7.43 section.

Edited to add.

I have resolved the conundrum. My mistake. Wrong Teterevino!!!! :oops:

The frontline on the 8th accords with the 4.Gds.Tk.Bde map. Das Reich got close, but did not take that Teterevino on the 7th. The one they took was the smaller one further north. See map below.

Image
Last edited by MarkN on 20 Sep 2019, 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#77

Post by peeved » 20 Sep 2019, 17:44

MarkN wrote:
20 Sep 2019, 17:20
There are several pencil annotations on the map showing time/date. Two mention 8.7.43, none mention 7.7.43
Would the two in question happen to be these:
Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 18.34.42.png
Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 18.34.42.png (88.86 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 18.34.56.png
Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 18.34.56.png (79.88 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
If so, especially the second looks like the work of a dyslexic cartographer: 8.7.V5 or something.

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#78

Post by Mobius » 20 Sep 2019, 19:38

July 8.
At 0730 DR regrouped in Teterevino and was ordered to work with SS Deutchland Panzer Grenadiers. At 0800 it was involved in a fight with tanks at height 244.5 3 kilometers north west of Teterevino. At noon more Soviet tanks attacked Luchki (north). (I guess there were two nearby towns named the same which isn't uncommon in Russia.) At 1320 it was involved in another tank fight two kilometers east of Kochetovka. At 1425 the DR abandoned Teterevino (south) under Soviet pressure. At 1520 the Soviets move out of Teterevino to attack DR and the panzer grenadiers. A fierce fight ensued to the south. Claim that 1/3 of Soviet tanks knocked out was by the infantrymen. Apparently later the DR withdrew to the south some kilometers then made a left hook to attack Teterevino (n.) and Luchki (n.) taking the Soviet forces from the flank. But with all that fighting the DR did not gain any ground this day.
KurskSouthJuly8_1.jpg
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Prokhorovka_july8_1.jpg

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#79

Post by MarkN » 21 Sep 2019, 17:05

Back to Miles Krogfus's original post starting this thread.
Miles Krogfus wrote:
18 Nov 2018, 01:38
Page 2: Then on 9 July, the results of checking the number and type of Soviet tanks by OKW Panzer officer Alexander von Grundherr.
Image
An examination of the Red Army documentation for the relevant units and formations does not produce any evidence that any General Stuart/Lee were on the battlefield at all - let alone left behind.

Thus, the question arises, if as Miles Krogfus claims that "OKW (sic) Panzer officer Alexander (sic) von Grundherr" did indeed personally "check" these so called 35 "Russian armor wrecks", what were the "6 Amerikanische (General Stuart und General Lee)"

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#80

Post by Yoozername » 21 Sep 2019, 17:42

Not a primary source, but I believe it may have been possible.

http://www.byronhartshorn.com/2017/03/0 ... -at-kursk/

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#81

Post by MarkN » 21 Sep 2019, 18:16

Yoozername wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 17:42
Not a primary source, but I believe it may have been possible.

http://www.byronhartshorn.com/2017/03/0 ... -at-kursk/
Miles Krogfus's narrative in this thread is to highlight the "Combat Success" of Das Reich on the single day 7 July 1943.

Miles Krogfus has presented an internal OKH 'memo' detailing 35 enemy pantsers hit (abgeshossen) in Das Reich's AO without specifying who actually did the 'shooting'? Nor does the document state what damage was done nor how many of them were subsequently left on the battlefield.

Miles Krogfus has reegineered that document to make the claim that Das Reich themselves alone caused 35 "Russian armor wrecks" to be left on the battlefield.

How does the story at the webpage you linked to corroborate either of those two claims? What words in the text allow you to "believe it may have been possible" that Das Reich had anything to do with General Stuart/Lee pantsers on 7 July 1943?

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#82

Post by Yoozername » 21 Sep 2019, 18:23

An examination of the Red Army documentation for the relevant units and formations does not produce any evidence that any General Stuart/Lee were on the battlefield at all - let alone left behind.
Post the information then.
What words in the text allow you to "believe it may have been possible" that Das Reich had anything to do with General Stuart/Lee pantsers on 7 July 1943?
I didn't say that. Again, you misread. There were American tanks at Kursk.

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#83

Post by MarkN » 21 Sep 2019, 18:52

Yoozername wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 18:23
An examination of the Red Army documentation for the relevant units and formations does not produce any evidence that any General Stuart/Lee were on the battlefield at all - let alone left behind.
Post the information then.
Forum rules state:
In the research sections of the forum, we ask the posters to be reasonably well-prepared, and not ask others for information which they could easily get for themselves. The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service.
I am not your research service. Do your own here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/ That's where I found it. Very easy. No cost and you don't have to budge a single inch from your current position infront of your PC.
Yoozername wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 18:23
There were American tanks at Kursk.
That is not being questionned.

Edited to add.
Whilst I was typing my response, poster yoosername changed his post to include the following:
Yoozername wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 18:23
What words in the text allow you to "believe it may have been possible" that Das Reich had anything to do with General Stuart/Lee pantsers on 7 July 1943?
I didn't say that. Again, you misread.
What did I misread?

Your post immediately followed my questionning what the internal OKH 'memo' could be referring to in respect of the 6 Amerkanischer (General Stuart und General Lee) and then you posted a link to a story about American tanks at Kursk generally.

This thread has nothing to do with Kursk generally, it is about Das Reich combat claims on 7 July 1943.

So what did you "believe may have been possible" if it was not OKH or Miles Krogfus's Das Reich combat claims for 7 July 1943?

:roll:
Last edited by MarkN on 21 Sep 2019, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#84

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Sep 2019, 19:00

Churchill Tanks:
5th Gds Tank Army - 20
18th TC - 21
2d GdsTC - 16
2d TC - 11
5th GdsTC - 21

M3 Stuart and Grant:
52d Gds RD - 39 (230th Tk Regt)
67th Gds RD - 39 (245th Tk Regt)
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#85

Post by Yoozername » 21 Sep 2019, 19:17

This thread has nothing to do with Kursk generally, it is about Das Reich combat claims on 7 July 1943.
Combat SUCCESS Claims...you should calm down a little

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#86

Post by Yoozername » 21 Sep 2019, 19:24

Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:00
Churchill Tanks:
5th Gds Tank Army - 20
18th TC - 21
2d GdsTC - 16
2d TC - 11
5th GdsTC - 21

M3 Stuart and Grant:
52d Gds RD - 39 (230th Tk Regt)
67th Gds RD - 39 (245th Tk Regt)
Thank you for sharing. I suppose, risking a diatribe, that it might possibly be the 52 Guards ....

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#87

Post by MarkN » 21 Sep 2019, 19:27

Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:00
Churchill Tanks:
5th Gds Tank Army - 20
18th TC - 21
2d GdsTC - 16
2d TC - 11
5th GdsTC - 21

M3 Stuart and Grant:
52d Gds RD - 39 (230th Tk Regt)
67th Gds RD - 39 (245th Tk Regt)
On 7 July 1943, the Das Reich was pitted principally against the various formations and units of 5th GdsTC. One of it's formations was the 48th Regiment who held all 21 of the Churchill's you note.

On 5 July, 48th Regiment had been moved forward to (the smaller of the two) Lucki (Лучки) - see my map above - and were in place by that night. They reported the next morning that all 21 had arrived (as opposed to the other pantser units of 5th GdsTC whose 6th July (fit) pantser state was down on their 5th July pantser state after the move forward).

In the afternoon/evening of 6th July they supported the defence of (the larger) Lucki (Лучки) by running a counter-attack from the northwest.

On the 7th, the reengaged with the advancing Das Reich.

On the 8th, they do nothing of interest but their pantser state now seems to be down to just 5 fit. No indiction whatseover of the fate of the 'missing' 16?

The above is a summary of various primary documentation available here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#88

Post by Mobius » 21 Sep 2019, 19:29

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... hrise.html
The 245th Tank Regiment (12 M3 medium and 27 M3 light) fought at Kursk, on the south of the salient, subordinate to the 67th Rifle Division. It was in the way of the German strike group composed of 200 Panthers. Usually this battle is described as a slaughter of American tanks. It is true that the regiment took heavy losses during the first day, but they took their toll. The tankers reported 1 destroyed Tiger, 13 PzIIIs, 10 tanks, and 4 anti-tank guns. The tankers did not know that they were fighting Panthers. The documents describe firing on German tanks that crossed the anti-tank ditches and minefields with difficulty. The M3 lights excelled on July 5th, claiming 5 Panthers, but the mediums were no slouches either.
114th Tank Brigade
The brigade also excelled during the July battles against German counterattacks. According to Soviet reports up to 240 German tanks attacked on July 14th. The 2nd company of the 230th Tank Regiment commanded by Senior Lieutenant F.S. Glazkov (5 M3 light and 2 M3 medium) deflected 3 attacks, claiming 17 tanks. Of those, 4 burned and 2 disabled tanks were credited to the crew of Lieutenant N.D. Savva. Not bad for a "brothers' grave".
On the 9th the 2nd Tank Corps had 70 T-34s. 56 T-70s and 11 Churchills ready. They had 12 T-34, 7 T-70s and 2 Churchills in repair.

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#89

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Sep 2019, 19:50

MarkN wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:27
On the 7th, the reengaged with the advancing Das Reich.

On the 8th, they do nothing of interest but their pantser state now seems to be down to just 5 fit. No indiction whatseover of the fate of the 'missing' 16?

The above is a summary of various primary documentation available here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/
We assessed on 7 July5 destroyed & abandoned, and 3 damaged. On 8 July the same, which to me indicates the next info we had was from c. 9 July and covered loss and damaged for both days. To fit the database requirements I suspect we simply divided them between the two days. Of course, I'm talking about work I did about 25 years ago, so that may not be precise. :D

The Stuart/Grant wreckage of course was remnants of the overruning of the 52d and 67th GdsRD. The 67th appears to have lost or abandoned 28 and had 5 damaged on 5 July, leaving them 6. On 7 July the regiment was withdrawn and attached to 7th Gds Army. The 52d lost or abandoned 25 and had 5 damaged on 5 July, leaving them 9. Those 9 and 5 in repair remained with the regiment until 9 July when it was withdrawn.

It does not help that the Soviets didn't always bother to say what "M-3" they were referring to.

Oh, BYW, forgot there were also 55 M-3 with 40th Army.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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Re: Das Reich 7 July 1943 Combat Success Data

#90

Post by MarkN » 21 Sep 2019, 20:26

Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:50
MarkN wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:27
On the 7th, the reengaged with the advancing Das Reich.

On the 8th, they do nothing of interest but their pantser state now seems to be down to just 5 fit. No indiction whatseover of the fate of the 'missing' 16?
We assessed on 7 July5 destroyed & abandoned, and 3 damaged. On 8 July the same, which to me indicates the next info we had was from c. 9 July and covered loss and damaged for both days. To fit the database requirements I suspect we simply divided them between the two days. Of course, I'm talking about work I did about 25 years ago, so that may not be precise.
Your numbers, 16 in total, tally with the difference between the 6 and 8 July 5thGTC reports. However the 48th regiment narrative of the period suggests that the losses spanned 6th and 7th July - not 7th and 8th.
Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:50
The Stuart/Grant wreckage of course was remnants of the overruning of the 52d and 67th GdsRD. The 67th appears to have lost or abandoned 28 and had 5 damaged on 5 July, leaving them 6. On 7 July the regiment was withdrawn and attached to 7th Gds Army. The 52d lost or abandoned 25 and had 5 damaged on 5 July, leaving them 9. Those 9 and 5 in repair remained with the regiment until 9 July when it was withdrawn.
I appreciate what you are doing Richard. Thank you.

The 230th and the 245th Regiment were overrun by different German formations on a different day with the remnants withdrawing in a different direction to one putting them in front of Das Reich's advance. What relevance do their pantsers have to Das Reich "Combat Success" on 7 July 1943?
Richard Anderson wrote:
21 Sep 2019, 19:50
It does not help that the Soviets didn't always bother to say what "M-3" they were referring to.
And, as we are discussing here, the Germans were not exactly exemplory with their reports either. :lol:

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