Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
-
- Member
- Posts: 40
- Joined: 25 Feb 2014, 15:44
Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
These are the Panzerlage details recorded by the 4th pz division for different dates during operation Zitadelle, my question is does anybody know what the different letters and numbers actually refer to. If I recall correctly they had on the 1st July 76 Pzkpfw IV's which 'may' be number 4 but non of the other people I know have a clue what the 4,5,6s & d,e,f and r's etc are.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Any help greatly appreciated.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
I guess I will piggyback on this mystery....can anyone explain the 'e' 'i' and 'z'? I assume they might be runners/short term/long term repairs?
-
- Member
- Posts: 6349
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
e. = einsatzbereit - ready-for-action
i. = Instandsetzung - in repair
Z. = Zuführung - supplied (actually allocated would probably be a better translation, they were replacement allotments)
The initial German armor reporting system (the Panzerlage, or more explicitly, the Pak. Panzer und Sturmgeschützlage) apparently originated with the Quartermaster Generals Office of the Army General Staff (Gen.Qu./Gruppe V (K)) and the Chief Panzer Officer in the Office of the Chief of the General Staff (Pz.Offz.b.Chef.Gen.Stbs.). This utilized a letter code to identify the major types of German AFV. The codes, as defined by the General Staff were:
a = Pz-II
b = Pz-III kurz (5cm L42)
c = Flammpanzer-III
d = Pz-III 7.5cm
e = Pz-III lang (5cm L60)
f = Pz-38 (t)
g = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
h = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43)
i = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/48)
k = Sturmpanzer-IV
l = Pz-V Panther
m = Pz-VI Tiger I
n = Pz.Bef.Wg.
o = Beob.Pz.
However, the codes as used by Armee-Oberkommando 10. in Italy were slightly different:
A = Flammpanzer-III
B = Pz-III lang (5cm L/60)
C = Pz-III 7.5cm
D = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
E = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43 and L/48)
F = Pz-V Panther
G = Pz-VI Tiger I
H = Pz.Bef.Wg.
I = Sturmhaubitze (StuH-III 10.5cm)
K = Sturmeschuetz
L = schweres Pak
Obviously, the system employed by the Ostheer varied somewhat as well, but I would suspect the numerical run mirrored the alphabetical one.
The system was revised in early 1944, but at least in Italy was not applied until August.
CK = Pz-III 7.5cm and Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
CL = Pz-IV lang
D = Pz-V Panther
E = Pz-VI Tiger I
F = Pz.Befehls and Beobachtungswagen
G = Sturmgeschuetz, Sturmhaubitze and Sturmpanzer
H1 = schweres Pz.Jg. (Hornisse and Elefant)
H2 = StuG-IV n.A. (Pz.Jg.. 39) and le.StuG (Pz.Jg.-38 t)
H3 = schweres Pak (Sfl.)
H4 = schweres Pak (mot.Z.)
H5 = Artillerie (Sfl.)
H6 = s.I.G. (Sfl.)
O = Sturmgeschuetz and Befehlswagen (it.)
The final change was made as of 25 September 1944 when the codes shifted to a numerical system:
2 = Pz-III and Pz-IV, Pz.Bef.Wg. and Beob.Wg. were to be included parenthetically
3 = Panther and Panther.Bef.Wg.
4 = Tiger and Tiger Bef.Wg.
5 = StuG-III and StuG-IV, Jg.Pz.-IV (previously the StuG-IV n.A.) and Jg.Pz.-38 t (previously the le.StuG or Pz.Jg.-38 t)
6 = Sturmpanzer
7 = Jagdpanther
8 = Jagdtiger
9 = Nashorn (Hornisse)
i. = Instandsetzung - in repair
Z. = Zuführung - supplied (actually allocated would probably be a better translation, they were replacement allotments)
The initial German armor reporting system (the Panzerlage, or more explicitly, the Pak. Panzer und Sturmgeschützlage) apparently originated with the Quartermaster Generals Office of the Army General Staff (Gen.Qu./Gruppe V (K)) and the Chief Panzer Officer in the Office of the Chief of the General Staff (Pz.Offz.b.Chef.Gen.Stbs.). This utilized a letter code to identify the major types of German AFV. The codes, as defined by the General Staff were:
a = Pz-II
b = Pz-III kurz (5cm L42)
c = Flammpanzer-III
d = Pz-III 7.5cm
e = Pz-III lang (5cm L60)
f = Pz-38 (t)
g = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
h = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43)
i = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/48)
k = Sturmpanzer-IV
l = Pz-V Panther
m = Pz-VI Tiger I
n = Pz.Bef.Wg.
o = Beob.Pz.
However, the codes as used by Armee-Oberkommando 10. in Italy were slightly different:
A = Flammpanzer-III
B = Pz-III lang (5cm L/60)
C = Pz-III 7.5cm
D = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
E = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43 and L/48)
F = Pz-V Panther
G = Pz-VI Tiger I
H = Pz.Bef.Wg.
I = Sturmhaubitze (StuH-III 10.5cm)
K = Sturmeschuetz
L = schweres Pak
Obviously, the system employed by the Ostheer varied somewhat as well, but I would suspect the numerical run mirrored the alphabetical one.
The system was revised in early 1944, but at least in Italy was not applied until August.
CK = Pz-III 7.5cm and Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)
CL = Pz-IV lang
D = Pz-V Panther
E = Pz-VI Tiger I
F = Pz.Befehls and Beobachtungswagen
G = Sturmgeschuetz, Sturmhaubitze and Sturmpanzer
H1 = schweres Pz.Jg. (Hornisse and Elefant)
H2 = StuG-IV n.A. (Pz.Jg.. 39) and le.StuG (Pz.Jg.-38 t)
H3 = schweres Pak (Sfl.)
H4 = schweres Pak (mot.Z.)
H5 = Artillerie (Sfl.)
H6 = s.I.G. (Sfl.)
O = Sturmgeschuetz and Befehlswagen (it.)
The final change was made as of 25 September 1944 when the codes shifted to a numerical system:
2 = Pz-III and Pz-IV, Pz.Bef.Wg. and Beob.Wg. were to be included parenthetically
3 = Panther and Panther.Bef.Wg.
4 = Tiger and Tiger Bef.Wg.
5 = StuG-III and StuG-IV, Jg.Pz.-IV (previously the StuG-IV n.A.) and Jg.Pz.-38 t (previously the le.StuG or Pz.Jg.-38 t)
6 = Sturmpanzer
7 = Jagdpanther
8 = Jagdtiger
9 = Nashorn (Hornisse)
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Thanks, it seems the OP 'numbers' are from Kursk? Also, 'r' and 'f'? My guess would be that there are 78 Panzer IVs, 70 +6+2, this number is consistent between the top two parts of the report, being later 77+1. It would seem that r and f are some form of long and short term status.The final change was made as of 25 September 1944 when the codes shifted to a numerical system:
I was looking into the state of the Panzer Divisions as far as the doc I posted above. Specifically the number of Panthers. Zuführung would probably mean manufactured, accepted, and allocated....but who and exactly where might be another question. They are in the 'Pipeline'.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Do you have dates for this? I believe Von Esesbeck had the 4th PD around the 9th or 10th of July? Are you sure these numbers are just the 4th PD and not the other PD under him?steelers708 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 01:22These are the Panzerlage details recorded by the 4th pz division for different dates during operation Zitadelle, my question is does anybody know what the different letters and numbers actually refer to. If I recall correctly they had on the 1st July 76 Pzkpfw IV's which 'may' be number 4 but non of the other people I know have a clue what the 4,5,6s & d,e,f and r's etc are.
Any help greatly appreciated.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Here is an example of Panther allocation April 1944. Note it breaks down where it goes by division, Reserve Army, 'East Supply', etc.
Assignment and distribution of vehicles (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, Sturmgeschütz) during the month of April 1944 between the different units in the front. These lists were published by the Inspector General of the Armored Troops during the 'Führer Conference' on 10.05.1944.
Assignment and distribution of vehicles (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, Sturmgeschütz) during the month of April 1944 between the different units in the front. These lists were published by the Inspector General of the Armored Troops during the 'Führer Conference' on 10.05.1944.
Panther
Planned for April: 325 units Planned Assigned On the way
9. Pz.Div. 24 24 24
East Supply 64 64 64
4. Pz.Div. (II./35) 24 24 24
I./31 35 35 35
I./26 24 24 16
4. Pz.Div. 24 24 16
9. Pz.Div. 16 16 -
I./31 24 24 21
Reserve Army 10 10 9
245 245 209
-
- Member
- Posts: 6349
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Yeah, that seems to be an idiosyncratic pro forma. Like I said, the codes used by 10. Armee varied as well. The first Heer wide order establishing codes that I am aware of was in 1944.Yoozername wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 16:26Thanks, it seems the OP 'numbers' are from Kursk? Also, 'r' and 'f'? My guess would be that there are 78 Panzer IVs, 70 +6+2, this number is consistent between the top two parts of the report, being later 77+1. It would seem that r and f are some form of long and short term status.The final change was made as of 25 September 1944 when the codes shifted to a numerical system:
Pretty much and that pipeline frequently got diverted to other units or remained clogged for weeks at a time. I have seen "Z" figures remain the same for weeks, if not months, without ever arriving.I was looking into the state of the Panzer Divisions as far as the doc I posted above. Specifically the number of Panthers. Zuführung would probably mean manufactured, accepted, and allocated....but who and exactly where might be another question. They are in the 'Pipeline'.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
-
- Member
- Posts: 40
- Joined: 25 Feb 2014, 15:44
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
The dates for the above 3 are(in order) 1st July, 3rd July and 12th July, here's the 6th July figures. The figures are from the 4th pz Kriegstagbuch for 1st July to 30th September 1943 and so I assume they are just reporting their figures. For Zitadelle they actually give figures for the following dates 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 12th, 13th & 14th, on the 16th they just write "Panzerlage : einsatzbereit 2 Bef. Wg., 7 IIIk, 52 IV lang", I assume as the offensive was over by the 16th they only needed to report those that were operational.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
That Panther monthly data basically saw a shortfall of "Planned vs. Reality". 325 were planned, 311 were manufactured, 276 were actually 'accepted', 245 were assigned, 209 were actually 'on the way'.... and 247 were total write-offs during that month.Pretty much and that pipeline frequently got diverted to other units or remained clogged for weeks at a time. I have seen "Z" figures remain the same for weeks, if not months, without ever arriving.
As a side note, if you look at the Panther numbers on the Eastern Front from that chart. counting only runners and repairs, there are actually more Tiger I than Panthers. I would assume that Panthers, if available, might get priority in shipment over Panzer IV and other AFV. A majority of the 'z' numbers for the eastern front are from the Panthers.
But I am getting off topic.
-
- Member
- Posts: 6349
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Interesting, I just realized I must have missed the April figures, I have the May 44-March 45 figures in my spreadsheet, but not that month. Nor did they always have the actual production figures...I need to go back and add those in.Yoozername wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 19:37That Panther monthly data basically saw a shortfall of "Planned vs. Reality". 325 were planned, 311 were manufactured, 276 were actually 'accepted', 245 were assigned, 209 were actually 'on the way'.... and 247 were total write-offs during that month.Pretty much and that pipeline frequently got diverted to other units or remained clogged for weeks at a time. I have seen "Z" figures remain the same for weeks, if not months, without ever arriving.
Total Panthers in route June-October 1944 were 1,314. Total Tigers were 217.As a side note, if you look at the Panther numbers on the Eastern Front from that chart. counting only runners and repairs, there are actually more Tiger I than Panthers. I would assume that Panthers, if available, might get priority in shipment over Panzer IV and other AFV. A majority of the 'z' numbers for the eastern front are from the Panthers.
But I am getting off topic.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
Hi steelers,
I think I can bring a little light into the shadow. In the booklet Armes Militaria Magazine Hors-Serie Nr. 35 "La bataille de Koursk" by Yves Buffetaut there are figures of the tanks of the 4th Panzerdivision July 1943:
15 Panzer III N (75mm); so that must be number 4
1 Panzer IV short L/24; so that must be number 5
79 Panzer IV long L/48; so that must be number 6
6 Panzerbefehlswagen; so that must be number 7
Regards
Bert
I think I can bring a little light into the shadow. In the booklet Armes Militaria Magazine Hors-Serie Nr. 35 "La bataille de Koursk" by Yves Buffetaut there are figures of the tanks of the 4th Panzerdivision July 1943:
15 Panzer III N (75mm); so that must be number 4
1 Panzer IV short L/24; so that must be number 5
79 Panzer IV long L/48; so that must be number 6
6 Panzerbefehlswagen; so that must be number 7
Regards
Bert
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: Panzerlage report numbers and letter mystery.
I would agree that would be the most likely interpretation of the numerical vehicle identifiers. It might have been possible that this was a new system introduced for the Kursk offensive. Similar to the new vehicle divisional markings meant to confuse enemy intelligence. The 'd', 'e', 'f', 'r' and 'p' lower case letters appear to be some sort of repair states.
The PD didn't see action till the 9th/10th, I believe, so most of the diary entries (you have posted) are before that.The dates for the above 3 are(in order) 1st July, 3rd July and 12th July, here's the 6th July figures. The figures are from the 4th pz Kriegstagbuch for 1st July to 30th September 1943 and so I assume they are just reporting their figures. For Zitadelle they actually give figures for the following dates 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 12th, 13th & 14th, on the 16th they just write "Panzerlage : einsatzbereit 2 Bef. Wg., 7 IIIk, 52 IV lang", I assume as the offensive was over by the 16th they only needed to report those that were operational.