Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

[Christianmunich]

Firstly the advance towards the Odon was not stopped. The river was crossed at several points. What you should have said is despite local isolated German counter attacks the advance was not halted and the Odon was crossed.
it is also clear you know nothing about the 8 German wrecks recorded in that very area (Mouen) by a Canadian Survey team on 31/7/44. Two of the wrecks are Tigers. They are in addition to the 3 previously known Tiger wrecks.
What does that prove ?
That there are more Tiger losses than you know about and that they did not work in isolation.
British tanks could have been lost to the 6 other wrecks but you steadfastly refuse to allow for it.

This proves you have no evidence that connects those "possible" Tigers to enemy tanks. By your own standard of awaring kills you would never give two Allied tanks which are not even confirmed losses to a specific unit.

You prove that you have to grasp for straws.

Tell us which two Tigers those are where they were destroyed and by whom. Which is kinda the minimum standard of what I ahve done. Tell us how those two Tigers factor into the 5:1. I believe you have no evidence for any concrete cases, you merely think it is possible that some Tigers were lost and I agree, but that doesn't fulfill my rigid standard for verifiying kills. The British also lost tanks in the area were German claimed 10, I awarded none to the Tigers.

Is this the best? Two possible Tigers without data or possible unit which maybe knocked them? Or do you have more evidence?

[Michael Kenny]

This proves you have no evidence that connects those "possible" Tigers to enemy tanks. By your own standard of awaring kills you would never give two Allied tanks which are not even confirmed losses to a specific unit.

Actually there is an Allied claim. How come your detailed and thorough research missed it? The Tiger unit is known for certain.

Or do you have more evidence?

Yes.

Tell us which two Tigers those are where they were destroyed and by whom.

If you wish to employ me as a researcher then please let us discuss remuneration first.
I don't come cheap but the information you get will be 100% reliable and sourced.

Just to let readers know it can be very difficult to 'Tell us which two Tigers those are where they were destroyed and by whom' be aware that despite Tigers being the most photographed and talked about tanks and despite Normandy having pretty good photographic cover it is not always possible to discover a tank's location, Unit or cause of loss. For instance all that can be said about this very famous photo is it is a Tiger from 2nd kp. SS 101.

aaaaaaaad4rab2.jpg (58.5 KiB) Viewed 762 times

All else is informed speculation. Date, location and cause of loss are unknown except for a written report that mentions a Tiger with damage that would match that visible in the photo.
That might help explain what a massive bar is being set with a simple request to 'Tell us which two Tigers those are where they were destroyed and by whom'. If only it were that simple.

[Christianmunich]

Good lord kenny tell us the claim then and reference it and not one by one by one. Present your evidence. If you have none and just try to avoid being wrong in 1000+ comments on 10+ forums then admit it.

[Michael Kenny]

Good lord kenny tell us the claim then and reference it and not one by one by one. Present your evidence. If you have none and just try to avoid being wrong in 1000+ comments on 10+ forums then admit it.

I state categorically I have period documentation that mentions those Tigers.
2 Documents which give both dates and locations.

[Christianmunich]

So reading your post you have not connected any Tigers to specific Allied tank units?

Also Epsom has 3 Tigers "verified" destroyed by my research so please show how more were destroyed by Allied tanks. Please provide evidence for more than 3 Tigers destroyed by allied tanks

[Michael Kenny]

So reading your post you have not connected any Tigers to specific Allied tank units?

Incorrect.

[Christianmunich]

Well then I guess we will just believe you

[Avalancheon]

This is getting ridiculous.

but admitted by kenny................... was read by kenny .............Just present your case kenny.............Just a single one kenny........ lying about my methods kenny...............Bad taste kenny............you are also, again it pains me to say this, simply lying..........You are lying about my methods kenny ........

Clearly someone is irked by my refusal to validate his flawed theory..
A bit like Grasshopper seeking approval from The Master.

https://youtu.be/W2yIkDVs0cA?t=95

Stop. Just stop.

You made specific claims about the nature of CMs work. You said that the manner in which he verified Tiger kill claims are invalid.

But your criticism was a strawman misrepresentation of what he was actually doing. It doesn't accurately reflect his methodology.

What you means is this:
1, Find out how many claims Tiger Unit X make on any given date(A)
2. Check for a mention in Allied records (be it book or War Diary) of any casualties for any cause for that day(B)
3. If B is greater than A then declare all Tiger claims are verified.

Show a single example where I relied on this only. Just a single one kenny. I crossverified more than 100 Allied losses to Tigers. Just show me a single one where I did this.

You are also, again it pains me to say this, simply lying. I pretty decreased nearly all Tiger claims, for not a single day ( I believe ) did I accept Schneiders claims, every combat action got reduced by me. You are lying about my methods kenny because you don't find counter arguments. Bad taste kenny.

These are specific claims you made that are untrue. They are baseless claims and are not grounded in fact.

When CM pointed out how you misrepresented his work, you didn't respond in a manner befitting an adult. You didn't elaborate on your criticism or substantiate them in any manner.

You just ducked and weaved and retired behind a smoke screen and insults. And in doing so, you showed everyone present that your prior criticism really is groundless.

If this is the manner you continue to act, then why should anyone takes you seriously?

If you're just going to keep circling around the wagon while CM chases after you, then save everyone the trouble and quit while you're ahead. This is a history forum, not a rodeo clown show.

[Michael Kenny]

These are specific claims you made that are untrue. They are baseless claims and are not grounded in fact.

When CM pointed out how you misrepresented his work, you didn't respond in a manner befitting an adult. You didn't elaborate on your criticism or substantiate them in any manner.

You just ducked and weaved and retired behind a smoke screen and insults. And in doing so, you showed everyone present that your prior criticism really is groundless.

If this is the manner you continue to act, then why should anyone takes you seriously?

People will take me as they find me.
You just don't know enough to understand the mistakes he makes.
I do.
I know he is wrong.
You think he is right.
I can live with that.
Disregard my criticism at your peril.

If you're just going to keep circling around the wagon while CM chases after you, then save everyone the trouble and quit while you're ahead. This is a history forum, not a rodeo clown show.

Long ago I realised that most of the critics use me to try out their theories. They snipe and complain but what they are actually after is a Peer Review and/or data-mining my posts. Every time I correct them they modify their original claim using my data. They keep repeating this tactic until they (they think) get access to all my sources.
I simply stopped doing their research for them.
Christian has been in contact with me many times via PM the last time only a few days back and I always gave him the information he asked for (and then some) and for my pains he has several times here called me a liar.
I think it came as a bit of shock to him when he realised (the extra EPSOM Tigers info) he had not got everything he needed and he wishes he had not burned his bridges
I have sources he didn't know about
Please excuse me for not taking it lying down.
I have no intention of pointing out his errors until such time they impact in my area.
When serious posters are fooled into using him as a source then I will reply.
That is when the demolition will come.
To illustrate his problem I gave a specific example of EPSOM where it is obvious he did not know there were more Tigers destroyed than he lists.
This is a major problem for his calculations.
So thanks for the advise but you simply do not know what you are talking about.

[Christianmunich]

But you haven't shown it you just claimed it. Same as you claimed yesterday there are 9 unaccounted Tiger losses proven by operational and total strength stats, I ahve shown you were wrong and told the untruth because you knew several of those were accounted.

After I ahve shown this beyond doubt you have straight up said you don't care and will stick with the 9 even tho the number to be untrue.

Same as you claimed the 7th August didn't happen and after I detailed all evidence you simply said you have no idea what knocked the Sherman but were sure the Tigers didn't do it.

Whenever you are proven wrong you act like a child kenny.

My research remains fully uncontested. The best at the moment is "I ahve prove but I don't share it"

Christian has been in contact with me many times via PM the last time only a few days back and I always gave him the information he asked for (and then some) and for my pains he has several times here called me a liar.

Tell the truth then.

To illustrate his problem I gave a specific example of EPSOM where it is obvious he did not know there were more Tigers destroyed than he lists.
This is a major problem for his calculations.
So thanks for the advise but you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Another lie.

Here is my inquiry before I even published the thing, this is what I wrote to you:

Schneider has in his Normandy books several other "lost" Tigers during Epsom at Colleville, Cheux, Gavrus. His entire appendix is confusing, to say the least. You got any information about those, there is absolutely nothing written about those and it doesn't look like those were write-offs.

I literally came to you saying that there are missing Tigers which have no information about. This is also strongly counter acts your line of argument, you consider me a Tiger fanboy the same way you are a fanboy you can't comprehend that I want to find out the precise happening. I don't omit data which doesn't fit, I don't lie I don't fudge numbers. I came to you specifically asking about possible Epsom Tigers. After you said no precise information is known, I printed it exactly like this. Here is what I wrote in the 5:1. I knew Schneiders numbers don#t add up and tried to find out what happened to those Tigers and you say "it is obvious he did not know there were more Tigers destroyed then he lists". Yeah that is not true kenny.

Here as well his appendixes give other "losses" but there is nothing written about any of them. It is possible those are mere knock-outs but not write-offs like in the case of 222. There appear to be possible additional Tiger losses, the main evidence are reported Tiger wrecks in the Mouen area but if those are actual battle casualties or moved Tigers is unclear. Too little evidence either way. Given the inability of the folks in the forums to connect the pictures to the lost Tigers I think it is reasonable to believe more Tigers were destroyed during Epsom, but I wouldn't even want to begin speculating what got them.

You expect people to be like you kenny but some aren#t. My research is the most objective ever done on this. You told people for years the 7th was a lies and didn't happen even tho you had the brigade loss numbers. You said 5:1 is fanboy bullshit, now I have presented powerful evidence for this to be untrue and the best you got is deliberatly misstating my methods and "lying" (sorry) about the numbers of possible Tiger losses. Furthermore, you claim to have prove that connects unconnected Tigers to Allied tanks but will not share it. Fine with me, This here with the "9" and the 7th August I have completely refuted at least 3 of your major claims, you have not admitted one.

Here what you said after I showed the 9 were a deliberate falsehood you straight up ignored the three tanks that show you made it up. You just ignore them and move on

{quote]Yes.
If these two were knocked out in June and then written off in July they qualify as 2 undeclared losses.[/quote]

You just ignore the three and only talk about the 2 that were written of later. I have seen plenty of your posts, it doesn't matter how obvious it is you are wrong you will ignore it and move on.

I guess the irony is that I was literally searching "desperately" for Tiger losses which is shown by asking you directly and you make it sound like I deliberately try to undercount them. I didn't see you complaining about zeroing Tiger claims for some days because I lacked the data to confirm. You are not objective.

[Avalancheon]

People will take me as they find me.
You just don't know enough to understand the mistakes he makes.
I do.
I know he is wrong.
You think he is right.
I can live with that.

Fine, then explain the mistakes he makes. Explain where his attempts at kill verification miss the mark.

If CM really is as much of a dummy as you claim he is, then you should have no trouble dismantling his articles.

Your confident in knowing that his work is inherently flawed. So demonstrate your knowledge to us.

Disregard my criticism at your peril.

Your criticism of CMs work has seemingly been rebutted. At this point, there isn't very much for me to disregard.

You have an unsubstantiated claim about the validity of his work. Thats all you've bothered to give us in this thread so far.

I don't read minds, I can't tell whether you have a secret rebuttal up your sleeves. I can only discern what has actually been laid on the table thus far.

[Christianmunich]

Here is the Tiger loss list I compiled. I have included possible Tiger losses during Epsom for which I have no further information. When kenny claims I deliberatly keep Tiger losses low he is incorrect

Furthermore, the 5:1 does not hinge on a single Tiger loss. It is a number game, if their would be a confirmed Allied tank kill on a Tiger the overall ratio would change accordingly. But as we have seen no such evidence appears to exist. Here is my comment about the possible change of the ratio

There are several caveats that have to be mentioned. I think there is a non zero number of Tigers that got either destroyed by Allied tanks without documentation or got KO'd and eventually written-off later. How big this number is is not known but I consider it rather small but still non zero.

I state multiple times that the number is subject to change if new evidence surfaces. Since most people are fans in nature they only care for one side, but it should be mentioned that big Tiger claims were discarded just because evidence was lacking and not because they were implausible. Such claims could also be confirmed later one. We can sure that kenny will not unearth such evidence for us tho. Objective researchers are needed.

Some notable discarded claims:

* 8 tanks 28th June
* 7th tanks 11th July
* 32? On the 10th August, likely false documents used.

edit: It is important to repeat that at no point do I claim that every detail is correct, quite the opposite, I mention multiple times that such historic interpretations are open to change. Sadly to this point, no challenging evidence was presented to advance the case.

[peeved]

For token topical content was the M10 which reportedly Ko'ed Endemann's Tiger armed with a US 76 mm gun?

Markus

[Christianmunich]

I was hoping to find out as well, would be a pretty clear-cut confirmed kill. To my knowledge, there is a hole in the front of Endemanns Tiger so this also works out well with a M10. I was searching documents of the involved anti tank regiment but did not find anything about their equipment. At this point in time about 150?!? M10s were converted already to 17pdr.

The sources I read all just say "M10s" for those units so I think it is likely that this was indeed a regular M10.

edit: I think the 91st anti tank regiment during Jupiter had Achilles versions...

[Michael Kenny]

Here is the Tiger loss list I compiled. ,,,,,,,,,,. When kenny claims I deliberatly keep Tiger losses low he is incorrect

Just at a glance I can see two confirmed (as in can be proved to be knocked out by photographs) Tigers missing in early June alone and even SS 101s own figures shows they have a total loss of 9 Tigers by June 16th. You list only 4 in that period. That is less than half the actual figure.