Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 18 Feb 2019 08:34

Yeah you responded, but not with evidence. I don't see how you provided any proof those are hits by 75mm+ projectiles without applique armour. Just provide your evidence, if you have some. The gauges are very small and shallow and in the area where commonly track links are placed. Nothing of this looks like it fulfils the criteria. You have not provided the date or war time documentation.

Then tell us from where this Sherman is, where in NWE did it get knocked out. Which area, which German units around to knock it out. I don't know where the pic is from but to be honest still looks Mediterrane to me. So where is the evidence those are 75mm+ gauges without applique armour? I don't see any. No evidence is offered to cross reference the claims.

I repeat, neither looks to me like a 75mm+ hit. Are you going to provide further evidence or just remain with the claim those are 75mm+ impacts?

edit: Checking the second photo again, the tank has literally still track links still on the front.... . If those projectiles were 75mm+ the most plausible explanation are spare tracks and such tracks deflecting hits where normally everything went through is documented in the British Sherman late war sample. Note in the upper picture the area normally had several spare links threaded through middle section of the transmission housing. The small gauges fit well to this, or an obviously different type of projectiles. Here check the photo again:
M4 deflection bbb.jpg
Spare tracks on the front, if those are directly from the knock out is unknown obviously without further information, which was not given. Shermans normally had the spare links vertically from top down through the middle and under the bulges of the hatches. You will actually find more pictures with spares tracks only above the transmission housing, exactly where the impact is. Same concern go for the first Sherman, standard place for spare tracks but as I said without more information about date and place we can't know for sure. If the first pic is from Normandy than very many Commonwealth tanks had actually spare tracks exactly in this position.


edit2: The other picture linked by me on the other side was actually not the one with confirmed spare tracks, I switched the picture with another one. Check the following tank out:
A.42-2.JPG
The tank is said to have withstood several hits on the front. You see several smaller gauges in the middle to the right. Those were withstood AP impacts. Well, the area was covered in spare tracks which explains the results. On the transmission housing you see a huge hole of the same caliber impacts. Sadly the picture quality is very bad but you see comparable vehicles types and how spare links could effect impacts under the right conditions.

Especially interesting the size of the different impacts. HC were also used.
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Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 18 Feb 2019 12:10

The first picture was apparently a Sherman lost during Totalize, a quick googling shows Canadian Shermans around this time regularly being plastered with add ons at the front especially track plates exactly in the middle where the supposed deflection happened. Google for yourself. Pretty straight forward explanation...

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Feb 2019 17:22

Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 12:10
The first picture was apparently a Sherman lost during Totalize, a quick googling shows Canadian Shermans around this time regularly being plastered with add ons at the front especially track plates exactly in the middle where the supposed deflection happened. Google for yourself. Pretty straight forward explanation...

Thank you for trying to teach me to suck eggs but (unlike you) I am not a Google-bound 'researcher'. Have you ever wondered where the Canadians got all the Panther &Tiger tracks they used in this manner?

Oh and it is not a Canadian Sherman. Whoever is trying to help you out via PMs doesn't seem able to read the info in the pic either.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 18 Feb 2019 19:19

Michael,

How is that photo identified as A Sqn’s “Kursk”?

Regards

Tom

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 18 Feb 2019 19:33

No, I have not wondered where the spare tracks came from. What I have wondered is if there is a single picture of a Sherman withstanding a clean hit on the glacis. Judging your two pictures and the reactions afterwards I have for me concluded that those are not pictures of what was asked. One picture has actual spare tracks visible on the glacis, both dents/gauges appear small and are at the position which saw the most frequent use of applique "armor" in from of spare tracks. If the first picture is from Totalize like my spies told me via dead tree ( pm ) then I have found plenty of evidence via my primary research tool google that Shermans in those battles indeed were quite frequently plastered with additional stuff on the front most notably at the exact location where the pictures show dents. A Canadian video of the Falaise battles shows very many Sherman with downright uniform patterns of spare track links.

The rarity of the near-mythical event of a Sherman withstanding a hit of a standard issue German ap weapon must have been known to the Allied soldiers as well and it stands to reason some of them thought it would be a good idea to document such rare event. We have an abundance of pictures with holes in Sherman glacis but none with actual withstood impacts? This is again where empiric evidence meets theory, the Sherman armour with the aid of enough angle and distance should be able to at least occasionally protect against a German gun and despite the employment of dozen thousands of those tanks their appears to be no picture of such event. Maybe armour quality wasn't actually perfect when the tanks rolled into actual combat.

I assume you have one of the biggest collections of WW2 tank pictures and your inability to show a clear case, for me, makes it even more unlikely such picture floats around. Obviously, it should exist on paper but...

Recap my opinion about the two pictures. Both were likely hits on additional spare tracks that were prominently placed exactly at this position, the second picture even has spare tracks on the glacis. Maybe somebody else finds more documentation for the events, for both pictures I have no clue where those actually happened so I can't be more specific about the circumstances. 10k Shermans destroyed and no picture of a withstood hit on the glacis? Would be quite a surprise, wouldn't it? Hopefully, somebody else got more information. Maybe this warrants a thread on its own.

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 18 Feb 2019 19:37

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:19
Michael,

How is that photo identified as A Sqn’s “Kursk”?

Regards

Tom
The tank was named Kursk apparently. There are several pictures of the same tank. Also curious it was hit pretty often.
cAGNYFFFF0066.jpg
Same picture better quality.
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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 18 Feb 2019 21:54

Hi,

Thanks for the clearer version of the photo. I’m a bit surprised we can’t see large Tactical numbers on the turret.

Regards

Tom

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Feb 2019 00:01

Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:33


Judging your two pictures and the reactions afterwards I have for me concluded that those are not pictures of what was asked.
You are not the final authority on this matter. You asked for photos and you got them.


Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:33
If the first picture is from Totalize like my spies told me via dead tree ( pm ) then I have found plenty of evidence via my primary research tool google that Shermans in those battles indeed were quite frequently plastered with additional stuff on the front most notably at the exact location where the pictures show dents. A Canadian video of the Falaise battles shows very many Sherman with downright uniform patterns of spare track links.
You might want to check again about 'uniform patterns of spare track links'.
Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:33
We have an abundance of pictures with holes in Sherman glacis but none with actual withstood impacts?
Incorrect. I posted evidence of M4 frontal deflections.
Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:33
I assume you have one of the biggest collections of WW2 tank pictures and your inability to show a clear case, for me, makes it even more unlikely such picture floats around.
Incorrect. You asked for photos and they were supplied. You then backtracked and introduced impossibly high burdens of proof and re-defined the type of penetration. You have no interest other than having to admit your claim was wrong.
Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:33
Recap my opinion about the two pictures. Both were likely hits on additional spare tracks that were prominently placed exactly at this position, the second picture even has spare tracks on the glacis.
You are struggling now. It appears you have not the slightest idea about how track was stowed on the glacis and do not seem able to 'read' the photos.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Feb 2019 00:12

Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:37
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:19
Michael,

How is that photo identified as A Sqn’s “Kursk”?

Regards

Tom
The tank was named Kursk apparently. There are several pictures of the same tank. Also curious it was hit pretty often.

cAGNYFFFF0066.jpg

Same picture better quality.
Note the title of the photo, 'cAGNYFFFF0066'.
That means it is a photo I originally posted . He is mining my posts yet again.

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 19 Feb 2019 00:16

If you actually believed "the front glacis withstanding a clear hit" is the same as the "front glacis with applique armour withstanding a hit", then I am sorry you wasted your time. It is obvious that this is about the actual tank like it was produced. Next, you are going to post a picture of a Sherman that got additional armour plates welded on.

I have already provided photos with spare track links already.... And am aware those exist. I have redefined anything in this regard. A clear picture of a withstood hit on the frontal armour pak40 or better ( obviously without additional extra armour )

In my opinion, neither of your photos shows a Sherman that withstood a clear frontal hit. Judging from the shallow gauges and position and remaining track links in one picture those likely hit spare tracks.
You are struggling now. It appears you have not the slightest idea about how track was stowed on the glacis and do not seem able to 'read' the photos.
Not sure what you are trying to say, both impact positions where the prime area for spare links to be placed. I can only repeat myself one photo has literally still a spare track on the front.

Canadian propaganda reel from the Time picture one happened:

IKJcUZm.png
Same propaganda reel showing troops of the 1st Canadian Army preparing for the Falaise operation, same area and time pic one was taken. Obviously propaganda material so consider with caution.
xiL6m43.png
Check out the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbLTBN8tRG0 Majority of tanks appears to have track links and or wheels directly in the middle. According to Kenny the picture of tank one has its origin on the 8th August during Totalize. The videos illustrate those operations.

The Internet is full of Normandy pictures showing track links in the middle exactly where the hits occurred. Certainly not every tank then again one of your photo still has spare tracks on it. Those are simply lucky hits with high angle on applique armour.
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Last edited by Christianmunich on 19 Feb 2019 00:24, edited 1 time in total.

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 19 Feb 2019 00:18

Michael Kenny wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:12
Christianmunich wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:37
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
18 Feb 2019 19:19
Michael,

How is that photo identified as A Sqn’s “Kursk”?

Regards

Tom
The tank was named Kursk apparently. There are several pictures of the same tank. Also curious it was hit pretty often.

cAGNYFFFF0066.jpg

Same picture better quality.
Note the title of the photo, 'cAGNYFFFF0066'.
That means it is a photo I originally posted . He is mining my posts yet again.
That happens with reverse image search... Not sure why you posted a lower detail version in this thread here tho.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Feb 2019 00:26

Christianmunich wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:18


That happens with reverse image search... Not sure why you posted a lower detail version in this thread here tho.
Then link to the original.

It is not 'Kursk' though. It is from the same DVD as the 'Kursk' footage but is another M4. I expected you would notice the '173' markings on the front and thus realise it was 33 Armoured Brigade and 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry but apparently this was a bit too hard for you.

By the way it is the exact same photo. I made the originals from a DVD around 10 years back and the photo title is one of the random ways I title these photos. It is 100% my original upload. All roads lead back to me!
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 19 Feb 2019 00:40, edited 1 time in total.

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 19 Feb 2019 00:36

Michael Kenny wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:26
Christianmunich wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:18


That happens with reverse image search... Not sure why you posted a lower detail version in this thread here tho.
Then link to the original.

By the way it is the exact same photo. I made the originals from a DVD around 10 years back and the photo title is one of the random ways I title these photos. It is 100% my original upload. All roads lead back to me!
Apparently, you got the initial location wrong when you titled it. Not sure why you are surprised that a photo you link without giving details leads me to the actual photo with better quality. You linked the low-quality version here, I just linked a better one for Tom so he can see actual details. Never claimed this is my photo.

In regards to the topic at hand can we agree that those two photos likely depict impacts on applique armour likely initially assumed by me?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Feb 2019 00:45

Christianmunich wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:36


Apparently, you got the initial location wrong when you titled it.
Incorrect. I always knew that the photos of 'Kursk' were from TOTALIZE. Its a very well known tank. The title I gave it (CAGNY) is random. As I explained the original photo titles are random because I edit and enhance them so usually end up with 10 or more versions of the same pics. Then I weed and re-title the best versions. The early random title photos are spread all over my folders so sometimes I end up posting an early version.

Christianmunich
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Re: Tiger I versus 76mm ( US )

Post by Christianmunich » 19 Feb 2019 00:46

Michael Kenny wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:45
Christianmunich wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:36


Apparently, you got the initial location wrong when you titled it.
Incorrect. I always knew that the photos of 'Kursk' were from TOTALIZE. As I explained the original photo titles are random because I edit and enhance them so usually end up with 10 or more versions of the same pics. Then I weed and re-title the best versions. The early random title photos are spread all over my folders so sometimes I end up posting an early version.
Or you just got the location wrong back then. No biggie. Do we agree now that those hits were hitting applique armour before hitting the tank?

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