Forczyk & Nibelungenwerke: Panzer IV 1942 Production

[Yoozername]

I am starting this topic after reading through information regarding Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front, 1941-1942: Schwerpunkt, Robert Forczyk and claims made regarding Nibelungenwerke and the tank production start-up there in 1942. While I enjoy reading his books, and use information in them, I can't help but think that he might have researched the matter better. Often people latch onto certain poor info and spread it.

In any case....Reading this, and being in a topic regarding it, I investigated the claims...

Considering the actual rate of production of Panzer IVs up till December of 1941....I read the above with a bit of suspicion...

[Yoozername]

The actual production for the year 1942 at Nibelungenwerke was 186 Panzer IV. This included 10 F versions with the rest being a mix of F2 and G versions. Forczyk claims almost an order of magnitude greater was scheduled! He expected this one new facility to do more than triple the 1941 output of Panzer IV by itself.

The actual combined Panzer IV production from the three participating assembly plants is...



Clearly an issue, for all Panzer IV plants, is that there was a changeover from the short KWK 37 to the long KWK 40. This entails clearing out the old inventory, integrating new guns on the line, changes in ammo racks and procedures and inspections, etc. Also, it means a new sourced sub-system, and it's manufacture and delivery is critical to all the manufacturers. This is also true for the basic hull. It was not made in-house.

But, I digress, can the Porsche contracted order for 6 vehicles have possibly held up the Panzer IV order? Certainly not in other plants, of course, but is it also somewhat of just an excuse?

Well, let's look at the actual contracted numbers for the Panzer IV for Nibelungenwerke! Seems like a good start. The OKH spc, from July 1941 mind you, was for a nominal 120 Panzer IV for 1942. The so-called 'Maximum Program A' number was 252. 1800 is over 7X that best case number.

From June till August, supplies of guns became a bottleneck. The KWK 40, and StuK 40 for that matter, were relatively quickly developed weapons, and they would have their own issues, namely ammunition. It was actually so critical that orders went out on what they could shoot at with Pzgr 39. This was also impacting Pak 40 since they also were coming online in larger numbers and all three weapons shared projectiles. Again, blaming Porsche Tigers would be misdirected. Transporting 'extra' Panzer IVs to areas with little ammunition, making the scarcity worse, and the fuel situation even worse, makes no sense.

[Yoozername]

The Pak 40 was basically coming online along with the KWK 40 and StuK 40. Note a downturn in June/July? Interesting. I am not sure exactly who made each weapon but it would be nice to know. From panzerworld.

[Richard Anderson]

The actual production for the year 1942 at Nibelungenwerke was 186 Panzer IV. This included 10 F versions with the rest being a mix of F2 and G versions.

I show production at Nibelungenwerk was 13 F, produced December 1941-February 1942, before changeover to the G, of which 587 were produced March 1942-June 1943. I suspect three F were produced in December 1941, thus 10 F/F2 through February and the balance of the year was 176 G.

Forczyk claims almost an order of magnitude greater was scheduled! He expected this one new facility to do more than triple the 1941 output of Panzer IV by itself.

Given the monthly average production for all types of tanks in 1941 was 19 PzII, 58 Pz38t, 143 PzIII (plus 46 StuG), 40 PzIV, and 11 PzBefhl, that was a pretty tall order. Of course, the Wiki claims are even more ridiculous. It claims the monthly output was planned as 320...

But, I digress, can the Porsche contracted order for 6 vehicles have possibly held up the Panzer IV order? Certainly not in other plants, of course, but is it also somewhat of just an excuse?

It would be pretty odd if it did hold up the order? Nibelungenwerk apparently completed the Pz VI (7.5 cm) Fgst. (VK 30.01 (P)) project begun in 1939, sometime in 1942. It also completed 10 Pz VI P (8.8 cm) May-July 1942, so I don't see how that would affect the PzIV production already in progress? The 90 Panzerjäger Tiger (P) were produced April-May 1943, so they couldn't have had much effect on production a year earlier?

Well, let's look at the actual contracted numbers for the Panzer IV for Nibelungenwerke! Seems like a good start. The OKH spc, from July 1941 mind you, was for a nominal 120 Panzer IV for 1942. The so-called 'Maximum Program A' number was 252. 1800 is over 7X that best case number.

Then they exceeded the nominal figure, but failed to meet the maximum, neither of which was anywhere close to Forczyk assumption. I wonder where he got the idea that it was planned at 150 per month? At least it wasn't Wiki!

From June till August, supplies of guns became a bottleneck. The KWK 40, and StuK 40 for that matter, were relatively quickly developed weapons, and they would have their own issues, namely ammunition. It was actually so critical that orders went out on what they could shoot at with Pzgr 39. This was also impacting Pak 40 since they also were coming online in larger numbers and all three weapons shared projectiles. Again, blaming Porsche Tigers would be misdirected. Transporting 'extra' Panzer IVs to areas with little ammunition, making the scarcity worse, and the fuel situation even worse, makes no sense.

Yep.

[Yoozername]

double ppoosstt

[Yoozername]

Then they exceeded the nominal figure, but failed to meet the maximum, neither of which was anywhere close to Forczyk assumption. I wonder where he got the idea that it was planned at 150 per month? At least it wasn't Wiki!

Perhaps he read 180 a year and thought it was 1800 a year? It's just an order of magnitude...

I show production at Nibelungenwerk was 13 F, produced December 1941-February 1942, before changeover to the G, of which 587 were produced March 1942-June 1943. I suspect three F were produced in December 1941, thus 10 F/F2 through February and the balance of the year was 176 G.

Jan 42-Dec 42 show 10 F1, 76 F2 and 100 G Really, not much difference between F2 and G but there was some up-armoring, Delivery of Ausf G, with additional armour bolted or welded to the front of the hull and superstructure, began on 20 June 1942. Starting at 16 per month from July to November 1942, half of the Ausf G production were to be fitted with additional armour, from December 1942, resulting in approximately 700 Ausf G having the extra protection. There were probably a few in 1941 on the start up....

If you can get it at a decent price 'OKH Toy Factory' has some interesting reading. It really gives insight on many aspects of the whole German concept of starting up a 'tank plant'.

Forczyk goes off on more mistakes regarding this subject, I will give them the same treatment. He usually has good books.

Being a person that was involved with aspects such as R&D, Manufacturing, deadlines, and human nature...I can almost taste what was really going on. The whole Porsche Tiger development gets very weird, I will expand on that. But as far as how the initial Tiger (P) 'run' held up Panzer IV production? I doubt it. As far as the 'run' of 100 'production' Tiger (P), it was also a nothing burger for the most part. The Ferdinand run would certainly be a subject of interest. But it all really needs to be seen in the light of how many assembly halls were being opened up. And if the railhead was a choke point, etc. The facility was really in a state of construction and was just providing components and some rebuilds till Jan 1942.

[Richard Anderson]

Perhaps he read 180 a year and thought it was 1800 a year? It's just an order of magnitude...

Jan 42-Dec 42 show 10 F1, 76 F2 and 100 G Really, not much difference between F2 and G but there was some up-armoring, Delivery of Ausf G, with additional armour bolted or welded to the front of the hull and superstructure, began on 20 June 1942. Starting at 16 per month from July to November 1942, half of the Ausf G production were to be fitted with additional armour, from December 1942, resulting in approximately 700 Ausf G having the extra protection. There were probably a few in 1941 on the start up....

Interesting, then F2 got rolled into the G production in the totals, since they were so similar? Sloppy bookkeeping?

If you can get it at a decent price 'OKH Toy Factory' has some interesting reading. It really gives insight on many aspects of the whole German concept of starting up a 'tank plant'.

I've considered it for some time. One of the interesting things is the cover photo. It looks similar to the layout and production methods shown in a photo of Rock Island Arsenals tank assembly bay in 1939. However, very different from the Detroit and Grand Blanc tank arsenals, which were near contemporaries in terms of new factory construction to Nibelungen.

Forczyk goes off on more mistakes regarding this subject, I will give them the same treatment. He usually has good books.

In this case his order of magnitude error simply could have been stutter typing an extra '0'? It happens and with large manuscripts catching all the niggly typos is a bitch of a job. Or he simply had a poor source? Without pulling it off the shelf I don't remeber how he sourced that remark.

Being a person that was involved with aspects such as R&D, Manufacturing, deadlines, and human nature...I can almost taste what was really going on. The whole Porsche Tiger development gets very weird, I will expand on that. But as far as how the initial Tiger (P) 'run' held up Panzer IV production? I doubt it. As far as the 'run' of 100 'production' Tiger (P), it was also a nothing burger for the most part. The Ferdinand run would certainly be a subject of interest. But it all really needs to be seen in the light of how many assembly halls were being opened up. And if the railhead was a choke point, etc. The facility was really in a state of construction and was just providing components and some rebuilds till Jan 1942.

Yeah, no way that work on 11 additional vehicles in the first half of 1942 could have had such a ripple effect, unless we're missing a significant factor. And the Tiger (P) Ferdinand production was the following year, accomplished in two months, so could have had even less of an effect on the previous year.

[Yoozername]

Uh, no. The orders for wheels, and then more wheels and planetary transmissions came in before any Porsche tinkering even started. In fact, even before Nibelungenwerk was actually finished. A shop was set up in neighboring Steyr, summer 1940, Feb 10, 1941 saw startup at Nibelungenwerk at machine shop 1. At that time, there were material supply problems causing a delay. Finally March/April 1941, work was relocated from Steyr, and Panzer III and Panzer IV parts were started for Alkett and Krupp respectively. In fact, bottleneck parts for the Panzer IV were alleviated by Nibelungenwerk. Krupp was supplied wholly with the latest road wheels, and only had to supply the earlier designed ones themselves. As can be easily understood, Forzyck is way off mark. The large Nibelungenwerk facility had machine shop areas, halls for tank assembly (most still under construction till 1942), and was actually creating parts for Panzer II, Panzer III and Panzer IV. Neither Panzer IV production, and certainly not any Tiger (P) 'production', had any effect in 1941. The numbers are 126,500 Kg total 1941 production, with 120,500 Kg being Panzer IV. This includes a subsequent July 41 order of 4500 complete Panzer IV road-wheels in addition to 3000 semi-finished ones.

Given the initial ramp up of panzer IV in 1942, and token amount of Porsche Tiger (P) during this time, I can hardly believe that there were 'road-wheel' issues. The facility was accepting more machinery throughout this time and expanding, in fact, from July 42 to December 42 series deliveries (that is, parts for production) for both Nibelungenwerk and the other Panzer IV manufacturer (Krupp and some Vomag) totalled 294 tons. Spares were 949 tons. Spares went to the Army equipment depots and Homeland Repair. Considering the 'fleet-size' that actually existing in the field, I would suggest that they were ahead of the curve.

I do not think Forczck really knows the back story. Road wheels for the VK 4501 (P) were manufactured in Spring 1942, but as has been seen, there was not any real impact on other production, and it was discontinued. I don't want to get to into the whole Porsche thing yet, but am just concentrating on the Panzer IV. As one could imagine, the Ferdinand was worked on in March-May 1943, and it would have some impact on the facility, but the facility was expanding.

[Yoozername]

In this case his order of magnitude error simply could have been stutter typing an extra '0'? It happens and with large manuscripts catching all the niggly typos is a bitch of a job. Or he simply had a poor source? Without pulling it off the shelf I don't remeber how he sourced that remark.

It could also be he read that TOTAL Panzer IV production from all facilities were a goal of 1800 or something like that. But, it actually seems to be that the 1943 production was originally set for 150 a month. This was to be increased further to 175 a month, with a goal of ramping up to 250 a month in Dec 43. This included increased machine shop activities and also another assembly hall. It seems then, maybe he was off by a year.

In any case, considering the 1942 T34 production, along with KV and light tanks, the Germans were being out produced, and yet still tried to make a decisive attack in 1942. One that extended their lines further and strained the logistics to a breaking point. Some think a couple hundred extra tanks could have helped them in Russia in 1942. Actually, they would have been better off sending all 'Mark IV Specials' to try and clobber the Brits in the desert. But that is another story.

[Yoozername]

Some more 'info' that Forczyk puts out....

[Richard Anderson]

One problem I just noticed in Forczyk's account. He says that IOC at Nibelungenwerk was supposedly January 1942, but the first Nibelungen 7./BW-serie Panzer IV F was actually delivered in November 1941 and all 13 of that initial contract were delivered by the end of February. A second problem is that then, the changeover from the 7./BW to the 8./BW-serie, going to the L43 (and later L48) 7.5cm intervened and was for an initial order of 87, followed by three follow-up orders for 100, 100, and 300 respectively, so 587 total. Meanwhile, the same 8./BW contract series awarded Krupp 105, 300, 200, and 300 tanks (905) and Vomag 35, 100, 150, 150 (435). Thus, the notion that the initial contract orders would support a supposed Nibelungen production rate of 150 per month is fantasy. It was the 9. and 10./BW-serie contracts that ramped up Nibelungen production goals.

BTW, if you take the year from initial production at Nibelungenwerk, November 41-November 42, 112 tanks were completed, an average of 9.3 per month. The following year that increased tenfold, to 1,128 and 94 per month, followed by 2,722 and 226.8 per month. Vomag, starting three months earlier in August 1941, averaged 11.1 per month its first year, then 47.2, and then 67.3 in its last ten months of production, but then it was also producing the Jagdpanzer IV and Panzer IV 70 (V). Given the lack of facilities at Vomag that is understandable, but again there is no real indication anything extraordinary was holding back production at Nibelungen.

[Yoozername]

Thanks, I was looking for the Krupp and Vomag breakdown. I will post a more detailed post once the kid goes back to school. I love how the teacher unions get away with tacking on a Friday 'teacher-learning day' at the beginning of a three day weekend. And PO won't deliver my ebay books today either.

Even reading 'OKH Toy Factory', the author seems to be ignoring some common sense. I never liked chemistry too much, but have kept the idea of the 'limiting reactant' as a pragmatic thought. Panzer IV's were not going to pop out the back door of the Nibelungenwerke any faster than the bare hulls, and superstructures and turret/guns, etc. were fed in the front door. In some cases, like the cupolas, trucks were sent out racing to bring them to the plant, no chance they could be accepted by the 'customer' without them. Likewise, Nibelungenwerke was THE producer for spare parts that were needed for the other plants and Army.

[Yoozername]

An example of 'JIT' being reversed...May 45 Jagdpanther hull/superstructure backlog on top of other hulls...

[Richard Anderson]

Panzer IV Production

Sorry, can never figure out how to format Excel here. PM me with email for a copy.

[Yoozername]

I've considered it for some time. One of the interesting things is the cover photo. It looks similar to the layout and production methods shown in a photo of Rock Island Arsenals tank assembly bay in 1939. However, very different from the Detroit and Grand Blanc tank arsenals, which were near contemporaries in terms of new factory construction to Nibelungen.

This is an interesting topic, and the book has good photos of the Panzer IV and Ferdinand in assembly areas under production. The assembly seems to indicate that it is not 'Henry Ford' style or moving vehicle production line, and completed stationary AFV are hoisted up and out of the plant area. Basically, a 'parking lot' arrangement with AFV facing each other and workers/materials between them. The basic start, of course, is the bare lower hull (in the case of Panzer IV and Ferdinand). In some photos, these are neatly stacked behind the AFV being built. Presumably they are taken off the top once the AFV is finished and carried away, and put down in its place. All components and subsystems etc. must flow to the AFV under construction it seems. The book mentions that time studies were done to increase efficiency in production.

Yeah, no way that work on 11 additional vehicles in the first half of 1942 could have had such a ripple effect, unless we're missing a significant factor. And the Tiger (P) Ferdinand production was the following year, accomplished in two months, so could have had even less of an effect on the previous year.

This is a subject that I want to describe as I understand it. Of the 10 Porsche efforts in 1942, of the supposed 100 contracted AFV, only a few were ever (4?) 'delivered', and 3 without engines and the electric drive were kept, one w/o engine but hydraulic drive was kept, and 2 went for ballistic testing (hulls only supposedly). The rest of the contract was terminated in Sept/Oct, but apparently the 90 hulls were laying around. There is another story about those, aside from the usual Ferdinand chapter, but first there is info regarding making 'RamTigers' from the partially completed chassis mentioned above. Most documents say this never went anywhere, especially after Stalingrad, but the 3 known recovery Tiger (P) without turrets, completed in fall 1943, came from the first 10 mentioned above. In any case, the actual 'footprint' on the assembly halls was minimal, in 1942, as the majority of the hulls never made it to any chassis completion.

There is also the story of the Tiger (P) having two different types of drive. One the well known gas/electric but also the gas/hydraulic drive. These were separate contracts, and not only that, but the actual hulls were not the same! As mentioned, the hulls for work at Nibelungenwerke were supplied from Krupp. I will leave this link as interesting reading.

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/03/25/tige ... vk-45-01p/

This is a Krupp supplied hull. Much work is needed to make this even a chassis.