PANTHER 433

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spannermann
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PANTHER 433

Post by spannermann » 05 Mar 2019 16:29

This Panther appears in a thread below, it was a gift from the Russian to the UK, and the Directorate of Tank Design subjected it to various tests, in the photo below it has already had it gun removed and a lot of weights added over it.

Does anybody know what became of this Panther after the DTD had finished with it ?

cheers PAUL

b9889ce0e4ac6a78cd8bcf0fec789ef9.png
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warriorant
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by warriorant » 05 Mar 2019 18:31

Interesting read along with the trial reports. The Panther eventually burnt out as seen in the Appendix.

https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/10/02/f ... ther-tank/

Thanks Antony
Ex Nord West Kampfgruppe (Leighton Hall, UK)

Yoozername
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Yoozername » 05 Mar 2019 18:55

A general observation was that the tank was a year old before these tests. Obviously, not maintained, nor delivered in a running order.

Michael Kenny
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Michael Kenny » 05 Mar 2019 20:59

Yoozername wrote:
05 Mar 2019 18:55
A general observation was that the tank was a year old before these tests. Obviously, not maintained, nor delivered in a running order.

.........and still exhibiting all the faults common on the 'brand new' Panthers at Kursk.

spannermann
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by spannermann » 05 Mar 2019 21:39

Hi,

Thanks for that DTD report, even burnt out their would still be 45 ton of metal to be got rid of, I guess soon scrapped and remelted for the British war effort.

cheers Paul

Yoozername
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Yoozername » 06 Mar 2019 14:19

In the report, they note that they would be getting a newer version from Normandy. I suppose it hung around for parts for awhile. They obviously took off the gun/mantlet. I wonder if the Soviets sent them ammunition.

Given that the Brits were not aware of how to do repairs, lack of parts, and even some basic driving principles (if rolling backwards, put in clutch, take out of gear, step on brake...), I think they were reaching pretty far on the automotive side. It probably had one of its magnetos defective given the misses they reported. They did own a Tiger I (131), so comparisons between the two was lacking.

Anyway, again, the Brits probably were in the best seat as far as Western powers having experience with Panthers. That is, from Italy, From one delivered from the Soviets, From Normandy, From operating one (Cuckoo), and even occupying a Panther assembly plant post-war, and attempting to build some (Panther , JagdPanther).

I guess I read technical reports in a different light than others.

Richard Anderson
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Mar 2019 17:23

spannermann wrote:
05 Mar 2019 21:39
Thanks for that DTD report, even burnt out their would still be 45 ton of metal to be got rid of, I guess soon scrapped and remelted for the British war effort.
You could always query David Fletcher as to its fate. :D

Sadly, Aberdeen Proving Grounds kept about as a good a track record of its captured Panthers as it did the Medium Tank T6 prototype and various other items. The MAN Panther II chassis is known, but where its Panther G turret came from? The Ausf A they retain was either the one captured and shipped from Italy...or from 3./SS-Pz.-Regt. 1 captured at St Barthelemy. :lol:

Sadly, Aberdeen tested at least a couple postwar to destruction, which is also what apparently happened to at least one of its Tiger II. :cry:
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

spannermann
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by spannermann » 07 Mar 2019 20:27

Hi Richard,

I though that one of the Aberdeen Panthers (the one in the attached photos) had definitely been identified as 328 of 3/SS Pz Rgt 1. The one in the photo still exists yes? I took this photo in the mid 80's, so presume its still around.

Is the later Panther behind it, the Munich captured one. ?

cheers PAUL
326 Panther_0002 - Copy.JPG
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Yoozername
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Yoozername » 08 Mar 2019 15:32

The behavior of the engine did not permit a proper assessment of the vehicle’s performance. It was evident that the engine was mechanically unsound and without adequate spare parts it was not possible to restore the unit to a satisfactory standard, since certain of the engine components appeared to be of a sub-standard or obsolete type.
I find the report to be very odd in its remarks. They are certain that 'engine components' are 'sub-standard or obsolete type'? How would they know that with certainty? Clearly it was delivered in a non-operating condition? They did not have manuals or experience fixing it, yet claim...
The almost complete lack of accessibility to the engine compartment rendered difficult the amount of maintenance the power unit required.
They couldn't do first line checks like oil/fluids/etc.? What exactly did they think they needed or could do?

Seems a subjective consensus...
Whilst the camera pitch records show a marked ability to damp out oscillations the opinion of all members of F.V.P.E Staff who have ridden across country on the tank is that the suspension is not good.
and...
“the pitch and roll records show that the Panther suspension damps out quicker than that of the other tanks tested, it was found that in cross country going it was harder than the others. The nose of the tank dipped right down until the front suspension was “solid” when riding over the larger bumps. and this gave an uncomfortable ride for the crew.”
It seems to be based on this...?
Panther 44 tons 5 cwts. Approx. 500 miles
While it is relative, 500 miles on a D is amazing that it is running at all.... I suspect the front shock was in a non-operative condition...
The tank ran backwards with the engine turning over in the reverse direction. When the tank reached the foot of the slope an explosion occurred in the engine compartment and a petrol fire was started around the petrol pumps at the front nearside corner of the engine. This was quickly put out with Pyrene fire extinguishers. The force of the explosion was sufficient to lift the engine compartment cover hatch, breaking the thermometer bracket above it.

On examination of the engine, no serious defects were found as a result of the explosion and the tank continued its trials.
...this sort of 'expert driving' doesn't really test anything...
The very high compression ratio would render the engine more liable to reverse direction than would be experienced with orthodox practice.
LOL! Ok, if you say so. I am pretty sure you didn't use the one year old fuel in the tank....
A great deal of mechanical trouble has been experienced on the Panther during the trial but no attempt is made to give details of all the defects in this report.
Preaching to the choir... This report is based on the faulty assumption it was a candidate as a runner...

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Simon H
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Simon H » 08 Mar 2019 16:21

spannermann wrote:
05 Mar 2019 21:39
Hi,

Thanks for that DTD report, even burnt out their would still be 45 ton of metal to be got rid of, I guess soon scrapped and remelted for the British war effort.

cheers Paul
Might have been towed onto a range and used as a hard target as well.
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken Identification.

Yoozername
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Yoozername » 08 Mar 2019 16:23

FURTHER ACTION

Since the completion of these trials a later model of the Panther Tank has been received from Normandy, this machine will be submitted for performance trials as soon as possible.

This project will remain open until the new trials are completed.

critical mass
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by critical mass » 08 Mar 2019 18:45

Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Mar 2019 17:23


Sadly, Aberdeen tested at least a couple postwar to destruction, which is also what apparently happened to at least one of its Tiger II. :cry:
Indeed. At least one TIGER2 hulls was used up on AP trials and two further TIGER2 hulls beeing destroyed in 155mm HEP trials at the Aberdeen prooving ground.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/155208.pdf

Anyway, thanks for providing information on the T21 calibration shot. Much appreciated.

Yoozername
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Yoozername » 08 Mar 2019 20:06

Aberdeen also had a rare Puma armored car, sort of said "Eh', and scrapped it. I have been there once, perhaps '94, not a very well kept place.

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Simon H
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Simon H » 19 Mar 2019 16:23

critical mass wrote:
08 Mar 2019 18:45
Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Mar 2019 17:23


Sadly, Aberdeen tested at least a couple postwar to destruction, which is also what apparently happened to at least one of its Tiger II. :cry:
Indeed. At least one TIGER2 hulls was used up on AP trials and two further TIGER2 hulls beeing destroyed in 155mm HEP trials at the Aberdeen prooving ground.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/155208.pdf

Considering that the Tiger II hull in the 155mm proving tests at Aberdeen has no sign of the hull MG mount ever being fitted I wonder if this is because the hull was one of the incomplete hulks left behind at the factory rather than a tank that had been captured "in the field" by the Allies?
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken Identification.

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Geoff Walden
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Re: PANTHER 433

Post by Geoff Walden » 15 May 2019 03:13

spannermann wrote:
07 Mar 2019 20:27
Hi Richard,
Is the later Panther behind it, the Munich captured one. ?
cheers PAUL
Paul, if you mean the one that was on the Karlsplatz, that one was at Aberdeen for a short time after 1945, but by the 1960s it was in the Patton Museum at Fort Knox, Kentucky. It was moved to Fort Benning, Georgia, in 2011.
http://thirdreichruins.com/munich5.htm#karlsplatz
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
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