Tiger and Stug tactics

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Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 01 May 2019 23:20

In what circumstances (actual combat) was the Tiger more effective than the Stug and accomplished things it could not?

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Sheldrake » 02 May 2019 20:44

Cult Icon wrote:
01 May 2019 23:20
In what circumstances (actual combat) was the Tiger more effective than the Stug and accomplished things it could not?
Hmm lets start with SS Heavy Tank Battalion 501 at Villers Bocage A stuG woould have found it hard to drive along a column of M4s

And in the minds of allied tank men who all reported that they had fought Tigers and not StuG

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 May 2019 21:05

By 1944 the Stug was vulnerable to all Allied guns. In fact the situation was so bad that it was decided that Jgd Panzers were to be attached to Stug Units to protect them. The Stug never got their escorts.
So one area a Tiger had the advantage-it could last longer than 30 seconds once its position was established.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 03 May 2019 12:54

I think I should have named this Tiger and Stug/Jagdpanzer tactics. It seems to me that the weight of evidence largely shows the Tiger tank to be a glamour/uneconomical weapons system in the context of strategic retreat and shortages, particularly compared to the success of the Stug (with lead to a much expanded jagdpanzer arm) which by early 1944 had already reported their 13,000th tank kill according to General of the Artillery Lindemann.

In the west front 44/45 the Tiger had average or comparative troubled performance if one examines it outside of Normandy (503, SS 501, SS 502) and the famous action of SS Pz Brigade Westfalen 1945 (with 507th Tiger involved in actions that culminated in the death of General Rose of the 3rd Armored Division)

Arhem, Ardennes and two Tiger units that fought largely in the West 44/45:

sPzAbt 506
sPzAbt (FKL) 301

One for the Tiger

1. Probably it's most useful action throughout the war: facing soviet anti-tank regiments/brigades and neutralizing them directly while being fire upon. The most famous actions with this was at Kursk, 1943 and it continued onwards to Gran, 1945.

Some good books that illuminate the Stug:

1. Iron Cross Brigade - The Story of Werner Gösel and Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 244
2. The Combat History of Sturmgeschuetz-Brigade 276
3. Illustrated History of the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 202
4. Sturmartillerie: Spearhead of the infantry

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Sheldrake » 03 May 2019 16:09

Cult Icon wrote:
03 May 2019 12:54
I think I should have named this Tiger and Stug/Jagdpanzer tactics. It seems to me that the weight of evidence largely shows the Tiger tank to be a glamour/uneconomical weapons system in the context of strategic retreat and shortages, particularly compared to the success of the Stug (with lead to a much expanded jagdpanzer arm) which by early 1944 had already reported their 13,000th tank kill according to General of the Artillery Lindemann.
CI
It is not clear what you are trying to compare here. There isn't a simple comparison between Tiger tanks and SturmGeschutz or Panzer jaegers. Tiger tanks are heavy turreted tanks. Strumgeschutz and Panzer jaeger include a range of vehicles with hull mounted guns from the Pz 38t to the JagdTiger. You are comparing a particular marque of AFV with a whole class of AFVs desiogned for a different purpose.

Are you trying to test whether turreted tanks were poor value compared to turretless Sp Guns?

Or are you refighting the argument between the German artillery and panzer arms about the role of armour, penny packeted to support the infantry or en mass in panzer formations?

Or are you challenging the value of the German investment in heavy tanks?

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 03 May 2019 17:03

I would most like to see evidence/observations in support of the Tiger

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 03 May 2019 17:27

sPzAbt 506
sPzAbt (FKL) 301

These two units are lightly covered in Tigers in Combat I/II with their war diaries. Funklenkpanzer: A History of German Army Remote- and Radio-Controlled Armor Units. Osprey Pershing vs Tiger I 1945. I wish there was an english language unit history of the 506th as that battalion was the most combat-experienced in the Western Front 44/45 that was assembled from veterans from the 9th Panzer division.

There should be some coverage of elements of 506th Tiger supporting the 116.Panzer, 9.SS PzD, and 10.SS PzD in their unit histories in West Front 44/45. I'll have to dig it up later. Perhaps in German there is additional info on the 9.Panzer.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Yoozername » 03 May 2019 17:35

I guess before one could discuss tactics, the organization, and evolution of the organization, and actual combat use can then be discussed.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Paul Lakowski » 04 May 2019 03:00

I got Askey book on OPERATION BARBAROSSA , he states 1725 Tigers [I/II] were lost in WW-II , but they destroyed 10,300 tanks and 11,380 anti tank guns/artillery pieces [12.5:1].

Spielberger "Sturmgeschutz & its Variants", reports the roughly 1000 STuG at the fronts in 1944- accumulated 4667 enemy tanks destroyed compared to about 713 assault guns lost [~ 6.5:1] . No mention of artillery destroyed , during this period.

Are these supportable figures , and are there other figures for other such exchanges?

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2019 04:48

Paul Lakowski wrote:
04 May 2019 03:00


Are these supportable figures ,
It is just all the crew claims all added up.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Paul Lakowski » 04 May 2019 21:26

Michael Kenny wrote:
04 May 2019 04:48
Paul Lakowski wrote:
04 May 2019 03:00


Are these supportable figures ,
It is just all the crew claims all added up.
Sounds like a good place to start. How many tanks did the WALLIES claim to have destroyed.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2019 22:06

Paul Lakowski wrote:
04 May 2019 21:26

How many tanks did the WALLIES claim to have destroyed.
I have no idea.
I do not share this obsession with kill-claims and thus can not be 'triggered' when someone casts doubt on 'my sides' claims.
Where is Sancho when you need him?

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Paul Lakowski » 06 May 2019 01:38

Michael Kenny wrote:
04 May 2019 22:06
Paul Lakowski wrote:
04 May 2019 21:26

How many tanks did the WALLIES claim to have destroyed.
I have no idea.
I do not share this obsession with kill-claims and thus can not be 'triggered' when someone casts doubt on 'my sides' claims.
Where is Sancho when you need him?

This is history ,there are no sides.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Jul 2019 00:44

As a collector of Stug, Heavy PzJ, and Heavy Pz unit histories/general studies there seems to be a pattern of different use-

The Stug units were much more active than the Heavy PzJ (653 and 654) and Tiger units in general and functioned as the daily backbone/insurance of the German infantry within, generally, the jurisdiction of Korps and periodically detached to divisions. The Heavy units seem to have had less frequent use- part of it must have been attributable to the Heavy PzJ/Tiger's inferior operational readiness but still, their activity level comes across as much lower.

I have never encountered any report of the PzWaffe that saw Tigers as say, elite final reserves but at times they were used in this manner. In other instances the Tigers/Panthers were used as a spearhead for attacks while the PzIV and Stugs were in subsequent waves or flanks. Other times they were used in conventional "Stug" tasks and seemingly wasted in this fashion.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 18 Jul 2019 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Jul 2019 01:17

Paul Lakowski wrote:
04 May 2019 03:00
Are these supportable figures , and are there other figures for other such exchanges?
Jan 44- August 44 had between 3:1 - 14:1 reported monthly "kill ratio" on the Eastern Front (published by General of Artillery in Oct 1944).

713 Stug write offs vs. 4,667 reported kills in this period

-------------------------

Analysis (August 1944) study of 23 AG batteries:

1 December 1943 and 31 May 1944: 12% of targets were AFVs, 88% were soft targets (matches their unit histories IMHO)

They fired 51,595 shells at 6,574 AFVs

NARA T78, R270 (General der Artillerie im OKH), F6217413-15.

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