Tiger and Stug tactics

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Sep 2019 20:59

Yoozername wrote:
09 Sep 2019 20:28

A nice clear picture....

Image

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4625/2540 ... c949_h.jpg
If you are going to copy Baz at least link to his site.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/archive ... ussion/all

This is the post you lifted the image from:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/archive ... .html#p261

and whilst I have no trouble with 'nice' the 'clear' seems a stretch. This is the uncluttered original from page 204 of 'The Forgotten Archives 1'
aug 16 2019510.jpg
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Yoozername
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Yoozername » 09 Sep 2019 21:05

I didn't know you were made a moderator. Congrats. But, the main point is you made an incorrect statement as far as Sturmartillerie units not getting their 'escorts'?

So, can you link a source as far as StuG III/IV lasting only 30 seconds? I take it you do understand you made another rather bold statement?

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Terry Duncan » 09 Sep 2019 22:38

A pointless and inflamatory post from Michael Kenny was removed by this moderator, along with a further pointless response from Yoozername that added nothing to the topic other than to set up a possible flame war. You gentlemen have been here long enough to know the rules do not permit this sort of behaviour, so please refrain from acting in such a way. I am sure the senior staff here will look very dimly on such a display especially after having to take action previously on the same subject. Reasonable discussion where you address the points made by someone, and respond to them with actual details rather than personal remarks are perfectly possible from both of you, so please restrict your posts to the sort that fall within the rules, or you will likely be subject to further sanctions from the senior staff.

Terry Duncan

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Yoozername » 11 Sep 2019 15:47

A report from Panzer-Elmito site... August '43...seems almost all weapon systems had to deal with the masses of Soviet armor

Document drafted on 21.08.1943 and addressed to the Jüterbog Assault Cannon School where the commander of the 'StuG-Abt. 244 'proposes, within the process of improvement and development of assault cannons, the replacement of 7,5-cm-StuK 40 L / 48 with a better performance cannon against armored targets.

Note: Influenced especially for political reasons (increasing use of assault guns as tank vehicles) Assault Artillery would not strongly support equipping its assault cannons with better anti-tank performance cannons. (see eg this document )
Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 24
4


In relation to : Command of the assault cannon school, test group nr. 1470/43
Subject : Technical development of the assault cannon

In the annex, the Abteilung presents the answer to the questionnaire. In reference to the technical development of the assault cannon, the Abteilung also makes the following suggestions:

It must be an urgent matter to create an armed assault cannon with a cannon of effects equal to the 8.8 cm of the Tiger. Especially during the course of defensive fighting, assault guns have been used almost exclusively as tank vehicles. During the attack the Russians frequently support their tanks with heavy anti-tank guns located in very advanced positions; the tanks generally advance to the first line and clean it systematically. On flat terrain it has often been impossible to approach tanks at effective combat distances - approximately 1,800 meters for caliber 48 with Panzergranate 39 - (in one of these attempts the AbteilungOf 12 vehicles involved, 7 assault guns lost 2 of them total losses due to the fire of the anti-tank guns. For this reason in the future and in similar situations, such missions should be rejected, something that could have a very negative impact on the great prestige that this weapon still has. The Tiger normally destroys the T-34 and the KW I at distances of 3,000 meters with the fifth shot, with the second usually setting it on fire. For this reason he has always been able to help in this type of situation.

Also in the attack we have frequently encountered situations in which a superior effective range of fire would have been absolutely necessary.


Signed Großkreutz
Major and commander of the Abteilung

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Cult Icon
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Sep 2019 16:32

^
The book "Iron Cross Brigade" is about this unit and is a combination of memoir and unit history. I haven't read my copy yet though.

Very interesting report. If that was a general view of Stug units than it means that the L/70 was sought to improve sniping capabilities against Soviet anti-tank guns. The Soviets sealed off the Eastern Front and neutralized German armor operations to a severe degree with their vast quantity of anti-tank units. However, while strategically effective these AT weapons were frequently not efficient against German armored attacks. It's like they were used as a universally available/ shock-absorbing barrier to pre-empt the German armor from much higher value tasks.

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Yoozername » 11 Sep 2019 20:28

It is odd that the report does not mention the StuH? I would imagine that it could fight the antitank guns more effectively. I suppose it was somewhat rare. Here is a nice chart showing production.

http://www.stug.ch/produktion/

Image

Some of the ranges mentioned in that report seem rather long. I guess everyone exaggerates.

I always felt that Sturmartillerie units should have had both organic AA, and also some indirect fire capabilities. Even something like 12 cm mortars.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 16 Sep 2019 06:42

"Kampfgruppe Chill and the German recovery in the West between 4 September and 9 November 1944, a case study"

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

This was the basis of the expanded tome "Autumn Gale".

In reading this I find it an excellently researched study that covers, in-depth, use of Stug units with and around KG Chill in the fall of 1944. (PzJ 559 (1 x company Jadpanther, 2 x company Stug), Stug 667, Stug 280, Stug 244) Beyond that it focuses on the largely successful mobile defense actions of KG Chill and its overall strategic impact.

The many armored actions covered show one unsuccessful and several successful gegenstoss (hasty counterattacks) of SPG-type vehicles with significant casualties. The bulk of the actions covered are about successful blocking actions with Stug and Jadpanther in the defense.

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Re: Tiger and Stug tactics

Post by Cult Icon » 17 Sep 2019 00:58

observations regarding armored combat:

+ Heavy PzJ 559's first company (Jadpanther) was notably more durable than the Stugs of 2nd and 3rd against CW anti-tank weapons which resulted in a higher kill rate (559- This combat unit's AFVs were mostly written off in 3-weeks of heavy action). However, the tradeoff was inferior tactical mobility, which effected their deployment in the fighting.

+ In the case of Heavy PzJ 559, it's loss rate in counterattacks were noticeably greater than that of positional defense and the SPG type vehicles were sub-optimally used due to 1. their connection with the infantry- at times maldeployed- 2. lack of a tank's flexibility and features. 3. In a bridgehead counterattack, the unit was deployed in individual companies rather than as an entire battalion, which lead to repeated scenarios where SPGs were outnumbered by allied armor and forced into an uneven fight.

+engagements of all SPG units were in the main taken in ranges well beneath the long range capabilities of their guns- the smaller profile didn't seem to play a major role in them being disabled by Cromwells and Shermans (IIRC two skirmishes did). Stug's kill rate in these skirmishes were roughly the same as the allied mediums they were facing save for a few engagements where a troop or a squadron was shot up.

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