7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

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Mobius
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7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 10 May 2019 14:12

Thanks go to Christian Ankerstjerne for finding an original source the manual on the 7,5 cm KwK 40 which has a 770 m/s muzzle velocity.
Or, the 7,5 cm Model 40 as used by the Hungarians in WWII.
This gun seems to use two types of AP ammunition. One is the pzgr. 39 and the other I can't tell what it is.
7,5cm 43 M ammo types.jpg
The firing table of the pzgr. with 770 m/s.
It does appear some pages are missing. In fact the image may be of two firing tables because the only way the heading and the last page can appear like this is for 4 pages to be missing. So the last page may not go with the heading. But the velocity of 582 m/s @ 2000m is valid for MV =770 m/s. Opposed to 546 m/s for a MV = 750 m/s.
7,5cm 43 M.Pzgr 39 Firing Table.jpg
I checked the online translator and I found.
height = magasság, width = szélesség
The tables show the height and width deviation columns switched from what is on the German KwK 40 tables.
Unfortunately the first 1500 meters of data are missing. But one can still compare the data with the 7,5 cm Pak, KwK 40
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=221644
Which has accuracy and deviation of 2000 m 49(16)% 1.3/1.6, 2500 m 28(08)% 1.8/2.4, 3000 m 17(05)% 2.3/3.3.
This might have been an error with the printing. This presents a problem because using the deviation the way it is does not produce the accuracy numbers listed. If they are reversed if does produce the 61(23) accuracy.

Here is the penetration table of that M 43 AP shell. It may be a locally produced shell.
7,5cm 43 M APHE penetration.jpg
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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by peeved » 10 May 2019 16:19

Google translates érvényes a német "7,5 cm Pzgr. 39" páncélgránátra is! in the M43 firing table into also valid for German "7.5 cm Pzgr. 39" Armor Grenade!

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/03/03/tas- ... in-detail/ lists the following ammo for
- 43. M 75mm L/55 tank gun (considered, same as the cannon of the 44. M Zrínyi I assault gun and the 43. M Turán III medium tank. Similar to the German 7,5cm Pak 40)
...
- 7,5cm 43 M. páncélgránát (AP), Hungarian counterpart of the German Pzgr. 39; weight: 6,8 kg
- 7,5cm 43 M. páncélrobbantógránát (HEAT), Hungarian counterpart of the German Gr. 38 H1/C; 5 kg, muzzle velocity: 450 m/s
- 7,5cm 40 (40W) M. különleges német páncélgránát (=”special German armour-piercing grenade”) (APCR); 4,1 kg, 930 m/s, tungsten core
- 7,5cm 43 M. repeszgránát (HE), Hungarian counterpart of the German Gr. 34; 5,74 kg, 550 m/s
Markus

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Yoozername » 13 May 2019 00:17

It seems that the velocity using German (nemet) Pzgr 39 is 750 M/s. 770 M/s seems to be a Hungarian cartridge. The first 3 types in the table seem to be Hungarian. First is a AP type round (probably a Pzgr 39 type design), a HEAT round, and a HE round. Note the first one seems to show two different propellant loadings, which seem to give the same velocity.

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 13 May 2019 01:38

Yoozername wrote:
13 May 2019 00:17
It seems that the velocity using German (nemet) Pzgr 39 is 750 M/s. 770 M/s seems to be a Hungarian cartridge. The first 3 types in the table seem to be Hungarian. First is a AP type round (probably a Pzgr 39 type design), a HEAT round, and a HE round. Note the first one seems to show two different propellant loadings, which seem to give the same velocity.
I was thinking that as well but the first page of the firing table is páncélgránát at 770m/s.
Then there are probably 4 missing pages then the firing table resumes at 1600m and is consistent with a 75mm shell with a MV of 770 m/s.
So is that the German Pzgr. 39? If so it has a MV of 770 m/s.

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Yoozername » 18 May 2019 17:28

Aside from having the same projectile weight (6.8 Kg), not much can probably be said regarding the projectile. It appears to use two different propellant loads. One is 2750 grams and the other is 2500 gms. Both give the 770 M/s velocity. Evidently, they are really packing in that 2750 to fit in there.

Would you expect a big difference in accuracy given 770 M/s over 750 M/s?

Penetration might be ~5% more? If they both fired the same Pzgr 39 german projectile?

The HEAT round has a different weight than the German ones.

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 18 May 2019 19:48

Yoozername wrote:
18 May 2019 17:28
Would you expect a big difference in accuracy given 770 M/s over 750 M/s?

Penetration might be ~5% more? If they both fired the same Pzgr 39 german projectile?
You would see an improvement in accuracy. It would depend on if the deviation numbers of this gun/shell is correct or not.
The reason is that this table had more deviation in the lateral direction then the vertical. That makes it more accurate firing at a distant tank because there is less error in the vertical plane. So at 1000m there would be about a 2% better accuracy just improving the velocity. The deviation change would give another 2.5% better accuracy at 1000m.

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by romsitsa » 19 May 2019 00:23

Hello,

I saw the book many years ago, but if I recall correctly, many pages are missing.
The 43M tank/assault gun was copy of the an almost direct copy of the L/43 KwK 40. The barrel length in the gun manual is simply not enough for being a L/48.
I'm not sure why the Pzgr 39 is listed at 750m/s, later at 770 m/s as another table from 1942 lists Pzgr 39 at 770m/s and Pzgr 40 at 990 m/s (L/43 gun).

Adam

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 19 May 2019 01:22

The only AP 40 table is 930 m/s.
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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by romsitsa » 19 May 2019 12:35

Hello,

7,5 cm 40 German tank gun (L/43)
7,5 cm 39M AP round V0:770 m/s
7,5 cm 40M AP round (it's listed as having special core) V0: 990 m/s
40m.jpg
Cropped from a table listing penetration values (at 60 deg angle on "modern" armor) for AT weapons (in Hungarian service), dated 31.12.1942.

Adam
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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 19 May 2019 19:51

romsitsa wrote:
19 May 2019 12:35
Hello,

7,5 cm 40 German tank gun (L/43)
7,5 cm 39M AP round V0:770 m/s
7,5 cm 40M AP round (it's listed as having special core) V0: 990 m/s

40m.jpg

Cropped from a table listing penetration values (at 60 deg angle on "modern" armor) for AT weapons (in Hungarian service), dated 31.12.1942.

Adam
What would that look like?

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Yoozername » 23 May 2019 14:22

romsitsa wrote:
19 May 2019 12:35
Hello,

7,5 cm 40 German tank gun (L/43)
7,5 cm 39M AP round V0:770 m/s
7,5 cm 40M AP round (it's listed as having special core) V0: 990 m/s

40m.jpg

Cropped from a table listing penetration values (at 60 deg angle on "modern" armor) for AT weapons (in Hungarian service), dated 31.12.1942.

Adam
I saw one source saying the Hungarians only had 10 Panzer IV G? (L43?). I would assume that December 31, 1942 they would be using German ammunition.

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by romsitsa » 31 May 2019 11:43

Weird, the German firing table from 1944 gives other penetration values than the Hungarian table from 1942. Ther was no Hungarian gun in 1942 that could fire the Pzgr. 39, so I assume they used German values or used a Kwk 40 (L/43) for testing.

Pzgr. 39 (German 1944)
100 meters 99 mm, 500 meters 90 mm, 1000 meters 80.4 mm

Pzgr. 39 (Hungarian 1942)
100 meters 105 mm, 500 meters 95 mm, 1000 meters 80 mm

Is it possible that German ammo performance declined or the armor quality (used for testing) was different?

Adam

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Re: 7,5 cm Model 40 (770 m/s) Firing Table Data (Hungarian)

Post by Mobius » 31 May 2019 13:21

romsitsa wrote:
31 May 2019 11:43
Weird, the German firing table from 1944 gives other penetration values than the Hungarian table from 1942. Ther was no Hungarian gun in 1942 that could fire the Pzgr. 39, so I assume they used German values or used a Kwk 40 (L/43) for testing.

Pzgr. 39 (German 1944)
100 meters 99 mm, 500 meters 90 mm, 1000 meters 80.4 mm

Pzgr. 39 (Hungarian 1942)
100 meters 105 mm, 500 meters 95 mm, 1000 meters 80 mm

Is it possible that German ammo performance declined or the armor quality (used for testing) was different?

Adam
The muzzle velocities were different, i.e. less so yes the performance declined.

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