7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

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Brady
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7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 10 Jul 2019 21:00

I pulled this from Wiki, just for a quick reference:

Image

Just what were the entry dates for the different HEAT rounds presumably the more capable ones were introduced later in the war ?

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kfbr392
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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by kfbr392 » 10 Jul 2019 21:21

better do a forum search beforehand next time: viewtopic.php?t=61084

Brady
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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 10 Jul 2019 21:35

Thanks, so it looks like there is no definitive evidence supporting the claim that the Germans used a HEAT round in the 7.5 cm kwk 37 in the BOF ?

Unless some new evidence has come to light in the past decade ?

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Mobius » 11 Jul 2019 00:50

I get the 75mm Gr. 38 Hl as 452 m/s from the German tables.

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 11 Jul 2019 17:39

Is there any reason to find fault with the referenced Penetration Values above for the HEAT rounds ?

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Mobius
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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Mobius » 11 Jul 2019 18:32

The HEAT shell are pretty much x 1/cos(30°) of the German values. https://panzerworld.com/armor-penetration-table.
I don't know where the two different Pzgr. shells come from.

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 11 Jul 2019 18:47

I had asked because I saw a reference, un referenced, that listed the values you show through the link above, and my assumption was that they had assumed an angle of impact that was diminishing the values listed above in my original post, and yes I am not to sure about the 2nd Pzgr 39/2 either, its just odd

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Mobius
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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Mobius » 11 Jul 2019 23:01

For the dates the HEAT was introduced is a subject of debate.
HL 2/1940
HL/A 5/1941
HL/B 5/1942
HL/C 10/1942
These are in some cases based on the earliest mention in records.
In some cases different vehicles received the shells for similar guns at different times.

Brady
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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 11 Jul 2019 23:21

So that February/1940 for the HL ?

Looking specifically for its use or entry date for a PIVD and a Stug, the question being of course were they used in the BoF, I think its clear those vehicles would likely had them in NA

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Paul Lakowski » 11 Jul 2019 23:53

Ian Hogg puts the 7.5cm le IG 18 first shaped charge as Gr 38 Hl with penetration of 45mm @ 30o.

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 13 Jul 2019 16:44

This quest would also extend to the P IIIN, and its use in the schwere Panzerabteilung

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by L/24Stug » 13 Jul 2019 23:44

According to Thomas Anderson, at least on 12 December 1941 the Fuhrer has aurorized the usage of Hohlram-Geschosse for 7,5cm KWK.

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by bam » 14 Jul 2019 01:16

From memory, Forczyk wrote that 7.5cm hollow charge rounds were first used (on the Ostfront) in Jan 42 by kurz Stugs who knocked out KV1s, an almost impossible task with their old panzergranate round. Minimum armor on a KV1 is about 75mm then, so that suggests it had to be the HL/A version.
He also mentioned later, that the best performing StuG abt facing the Rzhev Mars soviet winter 42 offensive was a unit equipped with only kurz 7.5cm guns firing HL rounds. They knocked out more tanks total and more tanks per StuG, than StuG abts with lang 7.5cm guns firing panzergranate. And yet many times I've read that german tankers didn't like the HL round cos its lower velocity arcing trajectory made aiming trickier. Go figure..
I've never heard of HL tank rounds used in France 1940, or before 42. The whole HL concept was brand new in 1940. They were used by the fallschirmjaeger on Fort Eben Email. They had, I think, 50kg HL charges. They came in 2 halves (for man carriability) and were joined to make a domed hemisphere. They blew the crap out of the forts heavy steel gun cuppolas, killing the occupants and wrecking the guns. Some blast holes were big enough that the paras could climb into the Fort and access the inner galleries. I think they also had smaller HL charges that they could put onto a cuppola's gun barrel to disable it. 5kg? I think this was one of the first military uses of offensive HL technology. The Germans had a lead in that field.

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Re: 7.5 cm kwk 37 (L24) HEAT rounds Entry Dates

Post by Brady » 14 Jul 2019 05:18

The Italians were using there EP efecto pronto rounds fir the 65/17 spring 42, and supposedly a EP* round for the 47/32 existed in late 41, the fielded other EP rounds for other guns in 42 as well, While this is interesting it’s a bit off topic .

To go back on topic, it’s curious that sources very so much on the subject of the German use of HEAT

* HEAT

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