schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

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Brady
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schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Brady » 13 Jul 2019 16:51

Its my understanding that initially the schwere Panzerabteilung were allocated the P IIIN's to supplement the Tigers, but that this stopped at some point in 44, but I am unclear as to exactly when this happened, were they still in service with the schwere Panzerabteilung that were in Normandy for example, I know 501 had them in Tunisia, but after that...


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Ironmachine
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Jul 2019 19:41

Officially, the Panzer III was dropped from the schwere Panzerabteilungen on 5 March 1943, when General Staff issued a new T/O for the heavy tank company and the heavy tank battalion with no Panzer IIIs. By that time, five battalions of Tigers had been already created (501st to 505th), that had to change to the new organization. This was accomplished during 1943, and by 1944 no Tiger battalion had Panzer IIIs tanks.

Brady
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Brady » 13 Jul 2019 20:22

Ironmachine wrote:
13 Jul 2019 19:41
Officially, the Panzer III was dropped from the schwere Panzerabteilungen on 5 March 1943, when General Staff issued a new T/O for the heavy tank company and the heavy tank battalion with no Panzer IIIs. By that time, five battalions of Tigers had been already created (501st to 505th), that had to change to the new organization. This was accomplished during 1943, and by 1944 no Tiger battalion had Panzer IIIs tanks.
Ok, Thank you, what then Became of the N's, who was using them, I seam to recall them being referenced in Sicily and Normandy, and Italy, but I am just going on memory

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Jul 2019 23:13

Can't help with that, I don't know the fate of the Panzer III tanks retired from the heavy tank battalions.
However, it should be noted they were not always N's. The K.St.N. did not specify any model of Panzer III, and different marks of the Panzer III were provided for the schwere panzerabteilungen.
For example:
In this period, the type of Panzer IIIs issued (or in operation) were:
s.PzAbt 501 - 25 PzIII 75mm
s.PzAbt 504 - 19 PzIII 50mm
s.PzAbt 503 - 25 PzIII 75mm
s.PzAbt 505 - 25 PzIII 50mm
s.PzAbt 502 - 9 PzIII 50mm, 17 PzIII 75mm
s.PzKp GD - 10 PzIII 50mm
s.SS-PzKp - each 10 PzIII 50mm
https://panzeriiilordofblitzkreig.blogs ... anies.html

Brady
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Brady » 13 Jul 2019 23:47

Interesting, I thought the intent was to provide support to the Tigers, and that the N with its 75 mm was better suited to that, and as the the HEAT thread on the subject has shown would by this time have a respectable performance to provide some measure of self protection against enemy armour, I wonder if the inclusion of the 50 mm in some formations was simply because there were not enough N’s on hand

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 14 Jul 2019 09:53

Didn't one of the Army Tiger Battalions convert its Pz IIIM to bridging vehicles and receive a reprmand from its Army HQ for not passing the vehicles on to another unit ? I can't remember which battalion and I can't get at the book which references the incident.
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Pz III
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Pz III » 14 Jul 2019 13:57

Yes Alan it was s.Pz.Abt 505 during Zitadelle. ( PT No.3-5)

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 14 Jul 2019 14:55

Thank goodness I wasn't making it up :lol:
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DirkAH
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by DirkAH » 14 Jul 2019 18:18

Brady wrote:
13 Jul 2019 20:22
Ok, Thank you, what then Became of the N's, who was using them, I seam to recall them being referenced in Sicily and Normandy, and Italy, but I am just going on memory
Almost all Panzer-Division's employed III N's at various times between 1942 and 1945:
Pz.Div.: 1., 2., 3., 4., 5., 6., 7., 8., 9., 10., 11., 12., 13.(?), 14., 15., 16., 17., 18., 19., 20., 21., 22., 23., 24., 25., 26., 27., 155. Res., 179. Res., 233. Res., 273. Res., Hermann Göring, Großdeutschland, Pz.Lehr, Totenkopf, Wiking, Norwegen
Inf.Div.(mot)/Pz.Gren.Div.: 16., 29., 90.

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Brady » 14 Jul 2019 19:33

DirkAH wrote:
14 Jul 2019 18:18
Brady wrote:
13 Jul 2019 20:22
Ok, Thank you, what then Became of the N's, who was using them, I seam to recall them being referenced in Sicily and Normandy, and Italy, but I am just going on memory
Almost all Panzer-Division's employed III N's at various times between 1942 and 1945:
Pz.Div.: 1., 2., 3., 4., 5., 6., 7., 8., 9., 10., 11., 12., 13.(?), 14., 15., 16., 17., 18., 19., 20., 21., 22., 23., 24., 25., 26., 27., 155. Res., 179. Res., 233. Res., 273. Res., Hermann Göring, Großdeutschland, Pz.Lehr, Totenkopf, Wiking, Norwegen
Inf.Div.(mot)/Pz.Gren.Div.: 16., 29., 90.

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WoW, Ok, TY !

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 14 Jul 2019 20:08

I'd have to question that Panzer Lehr ever used Panzer IIIN.
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by DirkAH » 14 Jul 2019 20:18

6. and 7./Pz.Lehr-Rgt. each reported a single III L/24 in February 1944 according to Martin Block. Presumably training tanks from Pz.Tr.Schule Bergen, but still part of Pz.Lehr-Div. for a short period of time.
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 14 Jul 2019 20:37

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by bam » 14 Jul 2019 21:59

As I recall, the Tiger abts had to give back their Pz. IIIs when the kstn organisation changed. They were taken away and given to regular Pz. Divs.
s505 was told to put the turrets back on those three(?) Pz. IIIs it had deturreted and turned into bridge carriers, then give the tanks back.

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Re: schwere Panzerabteilung and the Panzer IIIN

Post by AKahl » 12 Aug 2019 20:42

bam wrote:
14 Jul 2019 21:59
s505 was told to put the turrets back on those three(?) Pz. IIIs it had deturreted and turned into bridge carriers, then give the tanks back.
Better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. That's pretty good. Give 'em credit for thinking, though.

The order was probably accompanied with a "...And that's coming out of your pay!!"
Remain yourself, in spite of all the mighty do.

Goethe

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